Fantasia/F2K: 2-Movie Collection Discussion: Nov. 30, 2010

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jpanimation
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Post by jpanimation »

OK, I've never watched the extended (Roadshow) version they made for the DVD but is the only thing they added the extra Deems Taylor narrations? From that clip, it seems completely pointless as all he does is explain EVERYTHING you're about to see. It not only ruins the surprise for first time viewers but it kind of kills any desire to watch it after he explained it in detail (even the endings).

I'll be really pissed if they re-dubbed ALL of Taylor's existing audio just to add some pointless minutes that no one asked for (for all we know, Walt didn't want it either since he never put it back in during any of it's re-releases when he restored the rest of the film that was cut).

PS: Harpy nipples are still intact :wink:
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Post by Disneykid »

jpanimation wrote:I'll be really pissed if they re-dubbed ALL of Taylor's existing audio just to add some pointless minutes that no one asked for (for all we know, Walt didn't want it either since he never put it back in during any of it's re-releases when he restored the rest of the film that was cut).
Get ready for disappointment, then. The roadshow version on the 2000 DVD dubbed all of Taylor's narration for the sake of continuity, and all reports are indicating the same is true of this new release. It'd be nice if they included the original narration as a bonus, but that's not happening at this point.
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Post by miniroll32 »

The new 2010 release includes the exact same footage as the 2000 DVD release, disregarding the restoration.

In fact, the only change is the title cards. I was surprised when the film started that the original title card (the RCA one) is black with yellow lettering! But this and all the other Deems Taylor sections are what was originally intended for the original release, so I'm cool with the content.

It just look beautiful though, can't get over it
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Post by zackisthewalrus »

Part 2 of this discussion may be found here:
http://www.dvdizzy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27404
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Post by Disneykid »

miniroll32 wrote:The new 2010 release includes the exact same footage as the 2000 DVD release, disregarding the restoration.
Does the zoom-in to remove Sunflower at least look better on this release? It was horrible on the old disc as the grain got magnified exponentially.
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jpanimation
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Post by jpanimation »

Disneykid wrote:It'd be nice if they included the original narration as a bonus, but that's not happening at this point.
Funny thing, I think they should add the newly found footage of Deems Taylor from the Roadshow version and present that as bonus. I personally want to see this movie as it was presented in 1946 or the "general release" version (my 115 minute VHS was close). We must remember that while RKO cut the Toccata and Fugue sequence and a ton of Deems Taylor interstitial for time, when Walt had the chance to restore the film in 1946, he only added back the Toccata and Fugue sequence and some interstitial but continued to leave out the 5-10 minutes of gratuitous interstitial. So the 1946 version should technically be considered the Director's Cut, since I'll assume that's how he wanted it to be seen (most likely realized it works better without the extra narration). So give me the the 115 minute cut with Deems Taylor and leave the Corey Burton Roadshow version as bonus (Kelvin, this is not aimed at you but just one of my random rants).

Anyways, hopefully a mod will move all of our comments to the appropriate thread, starting with miniroll32's posting of THe Night on Bald Mountain HD footage via YouTube.
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Post by Mr. Yagoobian »

jpanimation wrote:[Funny thing, I think they should add the newly found footage of Deems Taylor from the Roadshow version and present that as bonus. I personally want to see this movie as it was presented in 1946 or the "general release" version (my 115 minute VHS was close). We must remember that while RKO cut the Toccata and Fugue sequence and a ton of Deems Taylor interstitial for time, when Walt had the chance to restore the film in 1946, he only added back the Toccata and Fugue sequence and continued to leave out the 5-10 minutes of gratuitous interstitial. So the 1946 version should technically be considered the Director's Cut, since I'll assume that's how he wanted it to be see (most likely realized it works better without the extra narration). SO give the the 115 minute cut with Deems Taylor and leave the Roadshow version as bonus (Kelvin, this is not aimed at you but just one of my random rants).
As long as we're making assumptions...

I think it was a lot more about the money. The film *hemorrhaged* money. Adjusted for inflation, its more-than-two-and-a-quarter-million bucks budget would be worth more than $35 million today (and there's no way that would cover the film's production costs in today's motion picture industry); the original roadshow presentation ran in all of a dozen theatres. It was wartime, the international markets were a shambles, and so after investing time and effort and considerable expense in developing & implementing a revolutionary new presentation technology, Fantasound got kicked to the curb for the '42 wide release: the studio needed butts in seats.

I have to assume a significant amount of Taylor's screen time was restored between '42 and '46---the roadshow version was more than 40 minutes longer than the '42 cut, the general release of '46 was more than half an hour longer: how much of that difference is due solely to Tocatta & Fugue?

I think the Tocatta was restored because it was animation, which is what Walt's studio *did*, and Taylor's time was not fully restored because it's *not*...but I don't think aesthetics were the only reason. The roadshow cut also ran with a 15 minute intermission, bringing the total viewing time commitment close to 2 1/2 hours, about an hour longer than the first wide release of '42 and still close to half an hour longer than the general release---the cuts add up to more showing per day per screen, which equals more potential butts in seats. No one wanted to invest that kind of time in exhibiting a film that was considered a box office failure. They were still probably pushing their luck with the general release running time: it was about half an hour longer than anything else the studio had released (or would, for some time), it was a radical departure from traditional narrative storytelling, and it still took about another quarter century for the film to break even.

Taylor was there because he had cachet; he was recognizable and respected in context of the film's objective to bring serious music to a wider audience. It may seem old hat now, but this film was revolutionary in filmmaking in general and animation in specific. His extensive introductions served a purpose for their audience. I don't understand how you can complain about releases lacking trailers because trailers are "a gateway to another time" while you simultaneously want Taylor's contributions abbreviated because you don't care what purpose they served for the film's original audiences in their time. Do you also want the film released in mono audio to keep consistent with the '46 re-release? After all your ranting about Beauty & the Beast, is fidelity to the original theatrical presentation only important when *you* decide it is?

(On a completely different note: why is this discussion branched off into a "Part 2" anyway? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of having threads in which the entirety of a topic's conversation can be found in one place?)
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Post by jpanimation »

Mr. Yagoobian wrote:After all your ranting about Beauty & the Beast, is fidelity to the original theatrical presentation only important when *you* decide it is?
I was wondering the same about you. I wanted Beauty and the Beast to be presented as it originally was in theaters and you defended the new version that was altered to meet the directors' intention, that makes sense. I support the general release version of Fantasia (the Director's Cut, as I call it) with the cut scenes included as bonus (or through seamless branching with an impersonator) and you support...I just can't figure this one out. You support the re-dubbing and censorship (I'm also not hearing complaints about the lack of intermission, so that rules out the Roadshow version) but you care about a small amount of footage Walt most likely cut himself (so wait, you do want the Roadshow version?)???

Anyways, one could consider the 'general release' the 'original theatrical' presentation and the Roadshow his Work in Progress version. As I said before, he added back around 30 minutes of footage (most of which was interstitial) but continued to leave out the 5-10 minutes of gratuitous narration. The intermission being left out makes sense, as not many films under 2 hours utilized those to begin with and I'm sure Walt wasn't going to fight for an intermission, since it serves absolutely no artistic purpose (only potty breaks during long movies).

I just think they belong in the bonus section, since I'm assuming Walt didn't want them in his film (the 5-10 minutes of footage wasn't going to make or break the film ticket sales wise, so I doubt that was left out for time). Adding in 5-10 minutes of footage Walt cut, claiming its to get closer to the Roadshow version is pretty disingenuous if you're going to leave out Sunflower, Deems Taylor's surviving audio and the intermission. That just seems like a step back, as we're getting neither the Roadshow or 46 release but some new creation.
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Post by CampbellzSoup »

Why do you impose your opinions on a new product if your such a purist? Go dig out a VCR and call it a day.
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Post by miniroll32 »

Disneykid wrote:Does the zoom-in to remove Sunflower at least look better on this release? It was horrible on the old disc as the grain got magnified exponentially.
It looks flawless because with the way Lowry restore animated films, the background paintings are stabilized and re-used for each frame, leaving no film grain. The film grain only exists on the character animation to retain the texture of the painting for each cel.

Therefore, the only way you could tell it was zoomed in is because the inking lines look slightly thicker. And unless you know about animation, you not going to be able to tell.

It's a really good job though, and sets something of a statement to all those who moan tirelessly about 'edits' - that these days it can be done seamlessly, and the family audience isn't going to know any better, which despite what anyone says, is the target audience with this release. If Disney was in the interest of branching off titles like this for collectors, it would hard back to the beautiful 1991 special release. But since Disney now have just 2 product lines - Diamond and Special - they are in place to organise the films.

Just a pity somewhere along the line, Fantasia wasn't considered special enough to be a Diamond anymore... The mind boggles.
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Post by Sotiris »

Dave Bossert Chats about Fantasia on Blu-ray

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Post by miniroll32 »

Toccata and Fugue now up in HD too from same user :)
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Post by Mason_Ireton »

So I don't know if anybody else noticed, but yesterday I browsed the Disney Store and noticed some Fantasia plushes, they had not just Mickey but also the hippo/gator/ostrisch from Dance Of Hours, I know I should've taken a few pics but my phone died. Found a pic of Ben Ali Gator's Plush on E Bay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VI ... 0407912286
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Mr. Yagoobian
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Post by Mr. Yagoobian »

jpanimation wrote:
Mr. Yagoobian wrote:After all your ranting about Beauty & the Beast, is fidelity to the original theatrical presentation only important when *you* decide it is?
I was wondering the same about you. I wanted Beauty and the Beast to be presented as it originally was in theaters and you defended the new version that was altered to meet the directors' intention, that makes sense. I support the general release version of Fantasia (the Director's Cut, as I call it) with the cut scenes included as bonus (or through seamless branching with an impersonator) and you support...I just can't figure this one out. You support the re-dubbing and censorship (I'm also not hearing complaints about the lack of intermission, so that rules out the Roadshow version) but you care about a small amount of footage Walt most likely cut himself (so wait, you do want the Roadshow version?)???

Anyways, one could consider the 'general release' the 'original theatrical' presentation and the Roadshow his Work in Progress version. As I said before, he added back around 30 minutes of footage (most of which was interstitial) but continued to leave out the 5-10 minutes of gratuitous narration. The intermission being left out makes sense, as not many films under 2 hours utilized those to begin with and I'm sure Walt wasn't going to fight for an intermission, since it serves absolutely no artistic purpose (only potty breaks during long movies).

I just think they belong in the bonus section, since I'm assuming Walt didn't want them in his film (the 5-10 minutes of footage wasn't going to make or break the film ticket sales wise, so I doubt that was left out for time). Adding in 5-10 minutes of footage Walt cut, claiming its to get closer to the Roadshow version is pretty disingenuous if you're going to leave out Sunflower, Deems Taylor's surviving audio and the intermission. That just seems like a step back, as we're getting neither the Roadshow or 46 release but some new creation.
Actually, you want BatB presented the way you want it presented because you think you know better how it DID look and how it SHOULD look than folks who've given over significant portions of their waking adult lives to producing the animation, the film, and every subsequent release, even though you haven't seen the original presentation in nearly two decades and you have yet to confirm that you've ever properly adjusted your settings to ensure that you've seen any single home media release as it was intended to be seen.

There's no real-world justification for declaring the roadshow to be a "work-in-progress cut" and the general release a "director's cut." The only reason the film was cut down in the first place was to get it in wider release. If the vision and the aesthetics of the original presentation weren't the paramount concern, then why in the world did the studio go to the effort and considerable expense of assembling it to make it the premiere release & play in fewer theatres than I have fingers & toes? (And since the only audio you seem to want to discuss is Taylor's, you still haven't addressed this question at all: you want mono with that reissue of the "definitive '46 release?)

I haven't seen any reason to believe that any of what remains of Taylor's dialogue is in any way usable---anyone got information to the contrary? Anyone? But it sure is a popular talking point among those who insist they're corporate Disney victims. For the sake of argument, let's say they actually have *all* of the audio & that half of it is audible: there's still no reason to believe there's as much as a single coherent statement that could be used. Where would the value be in including what they've got, either in the feature or as bonus material, if, on average, one can only understand half the words in a given sentence, or even in every <i>other</i> sentence?

I am no fan of revisionism, but I'm even less of a fan of those distasteful, offensive, abhorrent, racist caricature pickaninnies. Yes, the company should be transparent about the excisions. Yes, the footage should be included somewhere in the release. But in a time when, seven decades after the film's production, a disturbingly significant segment of the population feels comfortable referring to our sitting President as a "nigger"---and an even more disturbingly significant proportion of the population appears to be comfortable enough with that characterization that they do not volubly denounce such despicable behavior---I think it's completely inappropriate to include any implied endorsement of casual racism, even in period context, in family entertainment.

The intermission *is* included in the roadshow as presented on the Anthology release. No, it's not 15 minutes' worth of a static shot of a card and some closed curtains: that would be a stupid waste of disc space. But it's in the program, as it should be, and because it's home media I have the option of taking a break, or continuing on, or starting the film in the middle, or jumping around to watch my favorite segments first, or watching the whole film at double speed, just as you have the option of fast-forwarding or chapter-skipping through the Taylor narrations. If the listed running times for the Diamond release is accurate, the intermission will be included on this release as well...so I have no idea why you'd suggest the intermission's been cut. I can only assume that you haven't actually seen it, in which case I don't know how you can feel entitled to make any judgments about what constitutes Walt's definitive presentation...or you've seen it and you've misremembered, in which case I don't know why anyone should be impressed with your purportedly infallible 19-year-old recollection of BatB's color timing.
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Post by Sotiris »

Whatever Happened to Little Sunflower?
http://www.mouseplanet.com/9413/Whateve ... _Sunflower

A must-read article :wink:
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Post by Escapay »

sotiris2006 wrote:Whatever Happened to Little Sunflower?
http://www.mouseplanet.com/9413/Whateve ... _Sunflower

A must-read article :wink:
Great article, thanks sotiris! I like how he just talks about Sunflower, who animated her, the production documents talking about her scenes. Thankfully, it wasn't one of those "Disney is evil for censoring their history, blah blah blah" rants. It addressed those concerns, but did so without being too biased towards either side.

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Post by Raphdude »

"The intermission *is* included in the roadshow as presented on the Anthology release."

Yes the intermission card is on the new restored release, identical to the 60th anniversary dvd from 2000.
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Post by miniroll32 »

Raphdude wrote:identical to the 60th anniversary dvd from 2000.
It's not identical - this 2010 release has the original RCA title card. Its a black background with yellow lettering :wink:

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The card from the VHS and DVD releases was post-1940.

Also, the intermission is not for the full 15-minutes - only about 10 seconds like on the previous releases.
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Post by Heil Donald Duck »

Escapay wrote:
sotiris2006 wrote:Whatever Happened to Little Sunflower?
http://www.mouseplanet.com/9413/Whateve ... _Sunflower

A must-read article :wink:
Great article, thanks sotiris! I like how he just talks about Sunflower, who animated her, the production documents talking about her scenes. Thankfully, it wasn't one of those "Disney is evil for censoring their history, blah blah blah" rants. It addressed those concerns, but did so without being too biased towards either side.

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Post by miniroll32 »

The whole 'Sunflower' topic has been blown out of proportion for years, and has been done so not because the appearance of an extra few seconds of animation will immediately improve the film (that is, regardless, already a masterpiece), but simply for anarchy. It's making a fuss for the sake of making a fuss.

Censorship edits have been made countless times over the years, and for the most part no-one kicks up a problem. The problem only exists when a company as large as Disney, who focus on quality, are immediately 'found out' to be hiding something, and thus a chain reaction of childish comments appear - even going as far as plaguing sites like Amazon with 1-Star reviews because of these edits. If the individual in question isn't mature enough to take the situation with arguments on both sides, then clearly clearly it is only the immature that make a big deal in the first place.

Sure, its ignorant to try and forget that state of society from years gone by, but the edits exist purely because the modern Disney corporation wants to protect the image of "Uncle Walt" - that lovely chap who in his later years was never far away from a photographer and some happy kids. Disney don't want racial imagery in their films because it would literally crush this fake sense of magic. As every "Making of..." Documentary demonstrates, Walt was a flawless genius who probably never farted in public.

If anyone is interested in the Sunflower edits, then just research the topic. I've acquired many publicity photographs from ebay, and on a couple you can see the original Sunflower cels in the painting department.
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