60's & 70's Aspect Ratios (from Sword in the Stone)

[disneyfella]

I haven't gotten the Return From Witch Mountain pressbook yet, but I thought I'd post that I just bought the "Babes in Toyland" and "Adventures of Bullwhip Griffin" pressbooks in case anyone else was specifically looking for them. That way we don't 'double dip' on the research funds

[AlwaysOAR]

I haven't gotten the Return From Witch Mountain pressbook yet, but I thought I'd post that I just bought the "Babes in Toyland" and "Adventures of Bullwhip Griffin" pressbooks in case anyone else was specifically looking for them. That way we don't 'double dip' on the research funds

Funny you said that, as I was thinking the same thing as I just got for $3 each 1956's "Westward Ho, The Wagons!" and 1958's "The Light in the Forest". They were that much as they have a few articles cut out of them according to the seller. Hopefully the cutouts weren't on the backside of the aspect ratio instructions, assuming they are in there.
Which reminds me, besides "Savage Sam" were there any other pressbooks you got that didn't have ratio instructions in them. Just wondering.
Anyway, those two pressbooks couldn't be shipped to where I'm at, so when I get back to the states in mid-April for some R&R, I'll get that info out.

Scott

[Flanger-Hanger]

Looking forward to what Babes in Toyland might tell us Disneyfella. I'll also guess now that 1.66:1 Bullwhip Griffin is also incorrectly framed.

[disneyfella]

Return From Witch Mountain says

"The Aspect Ratio For An Out Of This World Screen Image Is 1:75 to 1"

The Special Edition Dvd is correctly framed![/b]

[AlwaysOAR]

I've received the pressbooks for the two Pooh shorts, 1968's ...The Blustery Day & 1974's ...and Tigger Too. Neither one had aspect ratio instructions in them, but I'm inclined to believe they were initially shown at the 1.75 aspect ratio.

Since the ...Tigger Too short premiered before "The Island at the Top of the World", and Island has been proven to have been released upon it's premiere at the 1.75, you'd have to think that Tigger Too was as well.

With the ...Blustery Day short, it premiered before "The Horse in the Gray Flannel Suit". The pressbook for Horse didn't have ratio instructions in it, but it's my belief that it probably was released at 1.75, with Blustery Day also at that ratio.

Now for 1966's ...The Honey Tree short, it premiered before "The Ugly Dachsund", and I've been unable to locate so far a pressbook for either one of them. However, Dachsund's DVD release was at the 1.75 ratio, and all of the Disney DVD releases at that ratio, 10 live action and 3 animated classics, that have had projection instructions in their pressbooks, have proven this ratio to be correct. So it's my belief as well that both Dachsund and The Honey Tree short were released at the 1.75.

Of course, the premiere pressbook for 1977's The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, the compilation feature composed of these three shorts, plus the tying animation between the shorts, had the instructions for it to be projected at 1.75.

In any event, I know I'd like to see the next release of TMAOWTP in it's correct theatrical ratio, and the Pooh shorts the way they were originally shown in theatres as bonus along with the feature.

Scott

[AlwaysOAR]

Return From Witch Mountain says

"The Aspect Ratio For An Out Of This World Screen Image Is 1:75 to 1"

The Special Edition Dvd is correctly framed![/b]

Meant to say thanks for that info. Now we know both Witch Mountain DVD's are correct.


I've also ordered the following...

1964's Mary Poppins

and

1968's Never A Dull Moment

This is my second attempt to get Mary Poppins, as my previous attempt was misadvertised by the seller. This seller I had got TMA of Winnie the Pooh and Island at the Top of the World last December. So I feel fairly confident that I'll get the right item.

With this order, it can't be shipped here, but I get back to the states in mid-April, so I'll have that info out then...

Scott

[AlwaysOAR]

I came across a pack of Disney pressbooks that includes...

1960's The Jungle Cat
1962's Bon Voyage!
1963's The Incredible Journey
1970's King of the Grizzlies

I was able to buy as a direct buy instead of bidding, and like my previous two orders, these will arrive in the states. So, I'll have their ratio info out to everyone in the middle of next month.


Scott

[disneyfella]

I got some more pressbooks in today. It appears that "Babes in Toyland" was actually hard matted on the prints that were released to theatres. In other words the only way you COULD watch this film was widescreen....that is until the home media format released a cropped version that has sustained itself to the digital DVD format. Anyway, here are the comments:


"Babes in Toyland" 1961 Premiere Release Information

"Mr. Exhibitor...

Perfect projection will assure your audiences of getting all the wonderful pleasures of "Babes in Toyland"...so be sure to use ASPECT RATIO 1:75 to 1.

WARNING: If projected at a ratio less than 1:75 to 1 there will be a black border at top and/or bottom of screen!"

(NOTE: There has never been a widescreen release of this film on any home media format. All issues have been zoomed in to a pan & scan transfer)






"The Adventures of Bullwhip Griffin" 1966 Premiere Release Information

"Mr. Showman; The Aspect Ratio of "The Adventures of Bullwhip Griffin" is 1:75 to 1. Adhere to this ratio to achieve the best screen image possible, and a quality image for your theatre"

(NOTE: The DVD release of The Adventures of Bullwhip Griffin is in its appropriate widescreen format of 1.75:1)

[Flanger-Hanger]

I thought Bullwhip Griffin was 1.66:1? UD says it is.

But thank you so much for Babes in Toyland! The mystery has been solved!

Now where's a proper release of the film?

[AlwaysOAR]

I got some more pressbooks in today. It appears that "Babes in Toyland" was actually hard matted on the prints that were released to theatres. In other words the only way you COULD watch this film was widescreen....that is until the home media format released a cropped version that has sustained itself to the digital DVD format. Anyway, here are the comments:


"Babes in Toyland" 1961 Premiere Release Information

"Mr. Exhibitor...

Perfect projection will assure your audiences of getting all the wonderful pleasures of "Babes in Toyland"...so be sure to use ASPECT RATIO 1:75 to 1.

WARNING: If projected at a ratio less than 1:75 to 1 there will be a black border at top and/or bottom of screen!"

(NOTE: There has never been a widescreen release of this film on any home media format. All issues have been zoomed in to a pan & scan transfer)






"The Adventures of Bullwhip Griffin" 1966 Premiere Release Information

"Mr. Showman; The Aspect Ratio of "The Adventures of Bullwhip Griffin" is 1:75 to 1. Adhere to this ratio to achieve the best screen image possible, and a quality image for your theatre"

(NOTE: The DVD release of The Adventures of Bullwhip Griffin is in its appropriate widescreen format of 1.75:1)

Thanks Disneyfella for that info. However, Bullwhip Griffin I believe is only available on DVD at the 1.66 ratio unfortunately. Anyway, I'll be getting back to the states in a couple of weeks, and will have the following info out then...

1956's Westward Ho The Wagons!
1958's The Light In The Forest
1960's Jungle Cat
1962's Bon Voyage!
1963's The Incredible Journey
1964's Mary Poppins
1968's Never A Dull Moment
1970's King Of The Grizzlies

I thought Bullwhip Griffin was 1.66:1? UD says it is.

Unfortunately, UD has been wrong in several of their reviews when it comes to letting us know what the correct theatrical ratio is. Also, most of Disney's live action catalog from the 60's through 80's is either overmatted or undermatted, if not panned and scanned, at 1.85 or 1.66 respectively. This has been done by both Disney and/or Anchor Bay, instead of the theatrical ratios of 1.75, the now proven to be common ratio for that era of Disney films.



Scott

[Flanger-Hanger]

I didn't mean to say that UD claims 1.66:1 is correct for exhibition, I meant that they say that was what was actually on the DVD.

[disneyfella]

My bad. The theatrical aspect ratio for The Adventures of Bullwhip Griffin was 1.75:1. The DVD release of the film is undermatted at 1.66:1.

[Escapay]

Glad to see this thread is still alive and being updated with information. Hopefully BVHE-Rep is reading it and making notes about the proper aspect ratios for future home video releases.

albert

[MattDean]

Back in the early days of DVD, and after releasing a handful of trial animated titles (Poppins, B&tB Xmas, etc), Disney announced their full support with their original Limited Edition animated titles, the first of which, I believe, was an over-priced Pinocchio (funny: some of the initial batch were re-labelled Prince of Egypt discs - one of which I have! Collector's item?!) In the press release that announced these and all future animated releases on the format, Disney stated each title would have bonus content, restored audio and video and all tiles would be released in their OAR. There's probably a copy of the press release on this site.

It's clear that whoever is in charge of deciding picture formats for DVDs is not aware of Disney's original promise, particularly when it comes to animated titles. It's almost as if Disney itself is not fully sure of its OARs, or they simply choose the cleanest master and if that happens to be a P&S designed for old TV exhibition- they'll use that.

In the UK, we were a bit ahead with W/S appreciation on VHS, and Disney started to release wide versions of their animated titles from the Lion King on, which as a W/S fan I bought. The point I'm trying to make is that when The Black Cauldron was released on VHS, it was P&S only which bucked the trend - but when I contacted Disney about the W/S release I was told they were planning to release it but there was a problem with the master - hence P&S only.

I wonder if sometimes Disney does take the easy, quickest and cost effective option when mastering older and maybe not as commercial product for release. Maybe it's their opinion that returns on a less commercial product isn't worth the cost of remastering a wide version of a previously P&S only release - particularly when the P&S master they have is ready to go.

Anyway, the reasons for Disney's choices of ARs is not really what this thread is about - so apologies if my waffle is of little interest!

I think Disney is starting to accept it's a wide world we live in now. They understand the importance of the wide screen - look at the Blu releases of Snow White, Pinocchio and Dumbo (UK) with optional 'Disney View' picture bars to 'fill the wide screen'. Isn't it now in Disney's best interests to release anything that hasn't been correctly framed for home video in its OAR? It'll keep 'screen-fill' fans happy, they don't seem too bothered by any window boxing necessary to accommodate the correct image and wide films that are letter boxed are now common place and Disney have stopped offering 4x3 alternatives - let's hope this continues and we don't start seeing 16x9 alternatives (James Cameron!!!). As a result of this OAR fans would be more likely to see the films as they were meant to be seen. The only danger I suppose is if Disney start cropping their 4x3 OAR films so let's hope they are fully aware of the press books you keep discussing!

Keep up the good work! OAR rules!!! Listen up, Cameron!

Matt

[AlwaysOAR]

I think Disney is starting to accept it's a wide world we live in now. They understand the importance of the wide screen - look at the Blu releases of Snow White, Pinocchio and Dumbo (UK) with optional 'Disney View' picture bars to 'fill the wide screen'. Isn't it now in Disney's best interests to release anything that hasn't been correctly framed for home video in its OAR? It'll keep 'screen-fill' fans happy, they don't seem too bothered by any window boxing necessary to accommodate the correct image and wide films that are pillar boxed are now common place and Disney have stopped offering 4x3 alternatives - let's hope this continues and we don't start seeing 16x9 alternatives (James Cameron!!!).

Unfortunately, we have seen some Disney DVD releases at the 1.78, 16:9 TV ratio, that weren't ever released to theatres at that ratio. These include...

1961's The Parent Trap, as I recently just discovered, despite this sites review saying it is at it's theatrical ratio of 1.75.
1978's The Cat From Outer Space
1979's The North Avenue Irregulars
1979's Unidentified Flying Oddball
1986's The Great Mouse Detective
1989's The Little Mermaid
1995's Toy Story
1999's Toy Story 2
2003's Finding Nemo

I do think from 2005 on, those Disney/ Pixar movies not released at the wider 2.35 in theatres, have been released at 1.78, though I'm not really sure, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

And regarding Cameron, yeah I see where "Avatar" is only going to be released on DVD at it's IMAX ratio of 1.78, though I thought IMAX was at some different type of ratio, don't really know. I've always looked at IMAX like the old roadshow premieres, like Sleeping Beauty's 70mm(2.20:1) showings, where it's a curiosity, but the main event was still traditional theatre, where it was shown in the 35mm(2.35:1).
I thought Avatar was okay, might eventually get it on DVD/Blu in later years, but at the very least you should be given the option of it's traditional theatre ratio, 2.35:1.


Scott

[KubrickFan]

Unfortunately, we have seen some Disney DVD releases at the 1.78, 16:9 TV ratio, that weren't ever released to theatres at that ratio. These include...

1961's The Parent Trap, as I recently just discovered, despite this sites review saying it is at it's theatrical ratio of 1.75.
1978's The Cat From Outer Space
1979's The North Avenue Irregulars
1979's Unidentified Flying Oddball
1986's The Great Mouse Detective
1989's The Little Mermaid
1995's Toy Story
1999's Toy Story 2
2003's Finding Nemo

I do think from 2005 on, those Disney/ Pixar movies not released at the wider 2.35 in theatres, have been released at 1.78, though I'm not really sure, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

And regarding Cameron, yeah I see where "Avatar" is only going to be released on DVD at it's IMAX ratio of 1.78, though I thought IMAX was at some different type of ratio, don't really know. I've always looked at IMAX like the old roadshow premieres, like Sleeping Beauty's 70mm(2.20:1) showings, where it's a curiosity, but the main event was still traditional theatre, where it was shown in the 35mm(2.35:1).
I thought Avatar was okay, might eventually get it on DVD/Blu in later years, but at the very least you should be given the option of it's traditional theatre ratio, 2.35:1.


Scott

IMAX is 1.44:1, but Avatar was shot in 1.78:1 and protected for 2.35:1. Since Avatar was seen in IMAX 3D and in some digital 3D venues in 1.78:1, I would call this the theatrical ratio too.

[AlwaysOAR]

Unfortunately, we have seen some Disney DVD releases at the 1.78, 16:9 TV ratio, that weren't ever released to theatres at that ratio. These include...

1961's The Parent Trap, as I recently just discovered, despite this sites review saying it is at it's theatrical ratio of 1.75.
1978's The Cat From Outer Space
1979's The North Avenue Irregulars
1979's Unidentified Flying Oddball
1986's The Great Mouse Detective
1989's The Little Mermaid
1995's Toy Story
1999's Toy Story 2
2003's Finding Nemo

I do think from 2005 on, those Disney/ Pixar movies not released at the wider 2.35 in theatres, have been released at 1.78, though I'm not really sure, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

And regarding Cameron, yeah I see where "Avatar" is only going to be released on DVD at it's IMAX ratio of 1.78, though I thought IMAX was at some different type of ratio, don't really know. I've always looked at IMAX like the old roadshow premieres, like Sleeping Beauty's 70mm(2.20:1) showings, where it's a curiosity, but the main event was still traditional theatre, where it was shown in the 35mm(2.35:1).
I thought Avatar was okay, might eventually get it on DVD/Blu in later years, but at the very least you should be given the option of it's traditional theatre ratio, 2.35:1.


Scott

IMAX is 1.44:1, but Avatar was shot in 1.78:1 and protected for 2.35:1. Since Avatar was seen in IMAX 3D and in some digital 3D venues in 1.78:1, I would call this the theatrical ratio too.

Oh I agree, it's just that you should be given the option of choosing which theatrical ratio to view it in. For me, I go with the traditional theatre ratio.



Scott

[AlwaysOAR]

I've opened my initial order of pressbooks from last month and have the following...

"The Light In The Forest" 1958 Premiere Release Information

MR. EXHIBITOR - - - PLEASE NOTE

For Best Projection Results in the Presentation of "THE LIGHT IN THE FOREST"
Use Aspect Ratio 1:75 to 1.

and it says a running time of 93 min...


"The Light In The Forest" has never been released on DVD, though perhaps VHS, not sure.



For 1956's "Westward Ho The Wagons!" it has no projection instructions that I can see, though because like the Forest pressbook, it has articles cut out and it might have had those instructions, not sure.
It was however advertised in Cinemascope, so my guess is that it's ratio was 2.35:1. There is no running time information that I can see as well.

Also, the featurette, "Disneyland, U.S.A." premiered along with this, also in Cinemascope.

While "Westward Ho The Wagons!" has never been released on DVD, again perhaps VHS, "Disneyland, U.S.A" was released on the Treasures Set "Disneyland: Secrets, Stories & Magic " in it's, I believe correct, aspect ratio 2.35:1.


Being that this collecting of pressbooks has become a hobby now, it bothers me that these two have more than just a couple of cutouts in them, and I won't order pressbooks with cutouts again. I think I'll take these two, along with a Oliver & Co. presskit I got last year, and get store credit at a memorabilia store I know of in town. I remember them having a large Family/Disney section from the last time I visited a couple of years ago, and I'll see if they have any pressbooks there.

Anyway, I'll be updating with some more pressbook info in the next few days...


Scott

[AlwaysOAR]

The next batch of pressbooks I've received include the following...



"Jungle Cat" 1960 Premiere Release Information

MISTER EXHIBITOR, PLEASE NOTE!

Give your patrons the best possible picture on your theatre screen. For top projection results in presentation of JUNGLE CAT, do not exceed ASPECT RATIO 1:75 to 1 or you will lose top and bottom of picture.

...this is stated on both page 6 and page 10 of pressbook...

And it states a running time of 70 min, matching it's time on DVD.

Also, the 45 minute featurette, "The Hound That Thought He Was A Racoon" premiered with this, though no projection instructions were stated for this, I assume it was also at same ratio.

"Jungle Cat" is misframed on Walt Disney's Legacy Collection: True-Life Adventures, Volume 3 - Creatures of the Wild, at a 1.33:1 (Open-matte/Pan & Scan?) ratio.
"The Hound That Thought He Was A Racoon" hasn't been released on DVD as far as I know, perhaps VHS?



"Bon Voyage!" 1962 Premiere Release Information

MR. EXHIBITOR!

To Present this Wonderful Screen Entertainment at its Best, Project at ASPECT RATIO 1:75 to 1

...this is stated on both page 2 and page 14 of pressbook...

And it states a running time of 131 min, 39 sec, matching its run time on DVD of 132 minutes.

Unfortunately, it's DVD release is at a 1.33:1 open-matte ratio.



"King Of The Grizzlies" 1970 Premiere Release Information

THE ASPECT RATIO is 1:75 to 1
Adhere to this ratio to achieve the best screen image possible, and a quality image for your theatre.

And it states a runtime of 1 hr, 33 min, 19 sec. I don't know it's runtime on its DVD release. It is however misframed at a 1.33:1 (Open-matte/Pan & Scan?) ratio.



For 1963's "The Incredible Journey", I actually received the 1968 re-release pressbook, a misadvertisement by the seller. I won't bother to get a refund for it, as it was one of four I ordered, and I didn't pay much for them. I'll just add it to the two pressbooks in the above post I'll take to that memorabilia store later this week.

It states a runtime of 1 hr, 20 min, but there are no projection instructions that I can see, and it is added to the following not having those instructions in them...

1963's Savage Sam
1963's The Sword In The Stone
1967's The Jungle Book
1968's The Horse In The Gray Flannel Suit
1968RR The Incredible Journey
1969's The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes

Anyway, it's getting late, and I'll add some more info tomorrow. Good night...


Scott

[AlwaysOAR]

Alright, the final order of pressbooks I received from last month include...


"Never A Dull Moment" 1968 Premiere Release Information

MR. EXHIBITOR: THE ASPECT RATIO of "Never A Dull Moment" is 1:75 to 1
Adhere to this ratio to achieve the best screen image possible, and a quality image for your theatre

...it states a running time of 100 min, 6 sec., matching it's running time on DVD
And, it has been released in it's correct ratio on DVD...



For 1964's Mary Poppins, it appears I've received the pressbook for the 1966 re-release. Now, the re-release pressbooks I've seen will state on the first couple of pages...Re-Released by Buena Vista Distribution Co., Inc., and the year of that re-release. This one has Released by..., 1964 Walt Disney Productions. However, it couldn't be the original for two reasons.

One, in the ad pad part of the pressbook (the ad pads were part of pressbooks till about the late 60's, when they became a separate insert in the pressbook), almost all of the ads show it having won 5 Academy awards. Being that Mary Poppins was released to theatres in Aug of 64, and the winners were announced in Apr of 65, well, you see.

Second, on page twenty of the pressbook, it talks about the original cast soundtrack on the Vista Label being the top selling LP of 1965. Mary Poppins was re-released to theatres on Jan. 1, 1966 according to various sites I looked up, so it's my belief that this pressbook is for that release. I guess it was either an oversight or a typo as far as having Released by..., 1964...

I've contacted the seller on this one and will receive a refund, as I was seeking the original, not really his fault of course.
For this pressbook it states a runtime of 2 hrs, 19 min., matching the time on the DVD releases. There are no projection instructions in it, and joins the following in not having them...

1963's Savage Sam
1963's The Sword In The Stone
1966RR Mary Poppins
1967's The Jungle Book
1968's The Horse In The Gray Flannel Suit
1968RR The Incredible Journey
1969's The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes


Scott