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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:21 pm 
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And also because you're getting on my nervers those that are making fun on my memory, please look at the documentary on your Beauty and the Beast DVD (I don't know which version you have but i believe the documentary is the same) and see the extracts from the original film. I hope this refreshes YOUR memory about how the film looked at theaters!

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/8374/bellewv0.jpg

on left: screenshot of documentary adn image as shown on theaters

on right: screenshot of DVD (ignore aspect ratio, was a mistake of my capturing frame software)


Last edited by filmmusic on Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:25 pm 
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filmmusic wrote:
And also because you're getting on my nervers those that are making fun on my memory, please look at the documentary on your Beauty and the Beast DVD (I don't know which version you have but i believe the documentary is the same) and see the extracts from the original film. I hope this refreshes YOUR memory about how the film looked at theaters!


And the trailers and tv spots. Even the IMAX trailer looks considerably better than the version on the DVD.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:32 pm 
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Let's not forget that the restoration COULD've been worked on under the directors' supervision. I don't know if it has, but if they're okay with it, I'm okay with it. It's the same movie, anyway. I saw it when I was too young to remember what the "proper" colors are, co I'm cool.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:39 pm 
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ajmrowland wrote:
Let's not forget that the restoration COULD've been worked on under the directors' supervision. I don't know if it has, but if they're okay with it, I'm okay with it. It's the same movie, anyway. I saw it when I was too young to remember what the "proper" colors are, co I'm cool.


if it's fine by you, ok, i can't change your mind about that.. whatever suits you.. ;-)

But the colors of a movie contribute very much to its general aesthetics.
It's NOT the same movie to me.
The original version had a dark, mysterious feel with all the shadows etc. (as one pointed out very correctly, the shot with the carriage that is going away looked creepy in the original version because you couldn't see exactly what it was, while in the "restored" version it looks ridiculously funny.)

if you change the colors on Davinci's Mona Lisa it will be the same painting? Mona lisa will be the same with a red-of-fire dress (like the color gaston has in the restoresd version)?
I think she would look like a clown!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:02 pm 
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Quote:
But you think the VHS and Laserdisc are the "real" colors. That's the problem here. The only reference for the "real" colors would be the digital files.


Well... since it was made in CAPS, it was obviously made with the assistance of the computer. So why the heck do they "digitally restore" these films? If it's digital to begin with, it doesn't age!! The only explanation is that they're messing with the colors, or some other aspect of the film.

Look at DVD releases such as Mulan... nowhere does it ever claim to be restored, and it looks as good as any other Disney DVD. Any CAPS film that calls itself restored is fishy... as there's nothing to restore!

Quote:
It's called matting and was done to all of the CAPS features in their theatrical presentations. Taking the 1.66:1 image and slightly matting it to 1.85:1. The director's chose the matted version over the unmatted one for DVD release (same for Hunchback).

Whether or not you agree with the practice is something else but don't say something that's not true.


Whether it was intended or not, you can't say it wasn't cropped. "Matting" is just the same thing as manually cutting off picture. (Which, mind you, can easily be redone from the 1.66:1 version using a computer filter... but it's impossible to UNDO it...)
So he's not saying anything that's not true. Except maybe that it was cropped for widescreen TVs... that's not really the reason why, but it definitely was cropped from its original version. (And with overscan turned on both ratios look exactly the same on a widescreen TV!)

Though as others have said, don't expect the IMAX print to go anywhere. It's a sad truth, but Disney just doesn't care about its fanbase anymore. They'll probably continue using their screwed up versions of the films until they stop releasing them... If someone has access to the master CAPS copy, let me know so I can 1-up their DVD production :roll:

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Arabian Nights (Unedited)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:23 pm 
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okay, I have image comparisons. The left is the OTV(original theatrical version) and the right is the IMAX/DVD version.

Do note that the source for the OTV isn't as clear as the IMAX/DVD version, but the difference in colour is still shockingly clear.
Also, the difference in Aspect Ratio is evident. The IMAX/DVD version cuts off a substantial amount of picture top and bottom, but does add abit to the left side, funnily enough :roll:

Sorry for the small size.



<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/fandy27390/comp2.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/fandy27390/comp3.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/fandy27390/comp14.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/fandy27390/comp4.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Red hair? Come on!

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/fandy27390/comp6.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/fandy27390/comp1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/fandy27390/comp5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/fandy27390/comp7.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Note the changes to the beast's fur.

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/fandy27390/comp8.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/fandy27390/comp9.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/fandy27390/comp10.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/fandy27390/comp11.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/fandy27390/comp12.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/fandy27390/comp13.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

The hair again.

More to come.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:28 pm 
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Wait, is that from the VHS?

Or is that the laserdisc version? I can't really tell since they're so small.
Not THAT much was cut off, just a couple percent from the top and bottom. It's not as bad as say Dark City which was 4:3 and became 2.35:1.

There's also a scene where Belle's father is like "Come into the light so I can see you" or something to that effect... and with the "restored" version it's already so bright you can see him already :lol:

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Howard Ashman:
He gave a mermaid her voice, a beast his soul, and Arabs something to complain about
Arabian Nights (Unedited)
Savages (Uncensored)
If it ain't OTV, it ain't worth anything!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:33 pm 
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The first screencaps look so beautiful!
Very appealing and they look so realistic.
I absolutely love the first one of the house and Belle.

The new ones look so cartoonish, almost like a sequel or a computergame.
Really weird.

I remember collecting all kinds of pictures, articles, books, and promotional things of the film back when it first came out when I was a kid.
This look was what I was attracted to.
This original, realistic "Disney Classic look". I can't quite put my finger on what that really is.

Pictures without this look didn't interest me. (Like other clipart, promotional pics that weren't real screenshots of the film or other drawings that didn't have this look).

I know that this restored version doesn't have this "Disney classic look" either. It's just gone. And I don't know why that is.
I don't see this as a Disney classic anymore. If it looked like this when it first came out I wouldn't be interested in it back then. It looks too cartoonish now.


Last edited by Marky_198 on Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:33 pm 
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drfsupercenter wrote:
Wait, is that from the VHS?


The image looks 4x3ish to me and it could be some old video master to show an even greater difference to make the IMAX version look more special.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:36 pm 
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drfsupercenter wrote:
Wait, is that from the VHS?

Or is that the laserdisc version? I can't really tell since they're so small.
Not THAT much was cut off, just a couple percent from the top and bottom. It's not as bad as say Dark City which was 4:3 and became 2.35:1.

There's also a scene where Belle's father is like "Come into the light so I can see you" or something to that effect... and with the "restored" version it's already so bright you can see him already :lol:


They're from the laserdisc. Yes, i'm in the process of showing that scene with the beast. Lol, the original intent is for the beast to be barely visible, only by his teeth and eyes and a shadowy outline. But the effect is totally ruined by the "restored" version.

Next time I will make the images bigger :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:41 pm 
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I did some comparison screencaps between the IMAX trailer on the DVD and the DVD transfer itself in this thread:

http://www.ultimatedisney.com/forum/vie ... 68&#353068

I'd love for the original theatrical version of the film on Blu-ray to be the actual one, muted colors and all, rather than the IMAX version branching out for 10 minutes. Somehow, though, I doubt that'll happen.

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Last edited by Disneykid on Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:42 pm 
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Ah, well, I opened it in Paint and the left image is somewhere around 1.53:1.
NTSC physically is 1.5:1, and gets resized by the player... so maybe whoever did those pictures just forgot to adjust it to 4:3.

The one on the right is like 1.88:1 so that's close enough to the DVD (And keep in mind, the picture is so small that counting pixels isn't 100% accurate since they would have been merged together to make the image smaller...)

I have a DVD transfer of the original laserdisc... and while it's not as good quality-wise as the DVD, laserdiscs don't fade/deteriorate like VHS does. So if anyone wants I can take comparison screenshots for myself using the LD and DVD...

--EDIT--

Aw darn, like 3 posts in the time it took me to make one! So I guess there's no need for me to do LD-to-DVD comparison pics then.

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He gave a mermaid her voice, a beast his soul, and Arabs something to complain about
Arabian Nights (Unedited)
Savages (Uncensored)
If it ain't OTV, it ain't worth anything!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:50 pm 
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Hmm, many if not most of those PE screens look better in my opinion, and could very well be the intended original look. It seems some of the laserdisc ones had their white balance off a bit. though some of the PE ones are clearly worse, such as the washed out beast and Bells's hair and skin tone in the later examples.

I'd say both have their issues. lets hope this next one finds a good balance between these 2. for me personally, I just want the one that looks the best. we cant pretend to know what the original looked like, only the folks at Disney involved in the original production or the people tweaking it will know if they changed anything, so that's kind of a moot point to debate about. all I want is something that doesn't look washed out, nor overly dark.

the thing with this though is that unlike older Disney films, this one should be perfectly preserved in digital files. so unless they somehow lose the color profiles used, I would think putting out the original version would be very easy. if they change something there should be no room for error. if its different its because they make the conscious choice to do so. unlike non caps movies where the original painted cels fade and change color in time.


Last edited by Kyle on Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:52 pm 
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Disneykid wrote:
I did some comparison screencaps between the IMAX trailer on the DVD and the DVD transfer itself in this thread:

http://www.ultimatedisney.com/forum/vie ... 68&#353068

I'd love for the original theatrical version of the film on Blu-ray to be the actual one, muted colors and all, rather than the IMAX version branching out for 10 minutes. Somehow, though, I doubt that'll happen.


I always loved watching the IMAX trailer and wishing that they had used that version for the DVD. I am totally jealous, your pics are better than mine :P

drfsupercenter wrote:
Aw darn, like 3 posts in the time it took me to make one! So I guess there's no need for me to do LD-to-DVD comparison pics then.


No, please do! Maybe you could do the transformation scene - that part bugs me the most when watching the DVD, lol

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:58 pm 
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Thanks Disneykid!
I cant't believe how big the difference is.
The first ones look so alive, like a true Disney Classic.
The PE ones look really cartoonish, cheap and dead really. It's just nothing special anymore. What a shame.

Look at the beasts face! The second one looks like it comes right out of my Disney clipart sticker-book! :(

I think this difference in atmosphere, realistic-ness, is the difference between a classic and a regular cartoon, and makes or breaks the film.

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Image
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Last edited by Marky_198 on Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:02 pm 
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I have a hard time believing those ^ comparisons...I have a version that aired on ABC, maybe I'll post some shots from that, but I don't think the ballroom scene was nearly that pink.

I think something about the video player or sceen cap method was off somehow.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:04 pm 
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And thank you too, Beast_enchantment, for showing the difference between what works and what doesn't work on film.
Because no-one will experience the thrill the people got from watching the original version anymore with this new version. The whole experience different as the film is changed to a generic cartoon.


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<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/fandy27390/comp7.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n71/fandy27390/comp13.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:58 pm 
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:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

The 1992 VHS/laserdisc is clearly washed out and soft in appearance. If you think the film looked exactly like that in theaters, then I believe you're letting your mind play tricks on you.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:28 pm 
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Kyle, was it on ABC HD? Or was this before they had HD over-the-air broadcasts?
Because I want to kick myself for not recording it... LOL

As far as the DVD screenshot software, I can do it losslessly. Give me a day or two and I'll get some comparisons. (I can basically extract each individual frame, without encoding or compressing it, so you can be sure it's 100% identical to the DVD and stop using software as your scapegoat)

@Rudy Matt... surely the 1992 laserdisc hasn't changed any since it came out... and I have a hard time believing that there was ever a "problem" with it originally. People who bought it in 1992 likely didn't go "Aw, look how horrible these colors look?" Granted, I didn't see it in theaters as I was born in 1991... but I'm inclined to believe that the laserdisc/VHS is closer to the original colors than the DVD. (Closer, not 100% perfect.)
Plus, why would they need to restore a CAPS film? That just says "phony" to me... if it was truly the original coloring they would just take the data from CAPS and stick it on a disc. Like they did with Mulan.
(And incidentally, the first DVD of Mulan was a telecine, where the new one is a direct dump from CAPS... and there's not much difference between the two. Which goes to show Disney's perfectly capable of not screwing up their colors... now if only they'd DO that for most of their films...)

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He gave a mermaid her voice, a beast his soul, and Arabs something to complain about
Arabian Nights (Unedited)
Savages (Uncensored)
If it ain't OTV, it ain't worth anything!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:32 pm 
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drfsupercenter wrote:
People who bought it in 1992 likely didn't go "Aw, look how horrible these colors look?"


Yeah, but how do we know? It's not like they were on the internet widely registering their complaint. All of this is so incredibly subjective anyhow.

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