Lets Get Pastoral Symphony On Treasures!

[matthewgb]

Of all the segments of Disney animation crying out to be put on home viewing format unedited this is it. Perhaps as part of the compilation set or it could be included on the second silly symphonies set. Masses, give up hope of ever having the whole movie with this segment intact, just give us the segment that for too many years we have only seen grainy pan and scans, lopped and cropped, butcherded and edited versions of this leading animated classic. Please, powers that be, let us have Walts original Pastoral Symphony, warts and all!!!

[Chernabog]

I also hope we someday will see it, but at the same time I hardly doubt it will happen - and surely not on the Silly Symphony 2 Treasure set, or the Combilation Set, anyhow!

[Ernest Rister]

Walt edited offensive stereotypes out of his movies after it became clear they had hurt or offended people in his audience, like the Jewish student in Three Little Pigs. Do you really think that if Walt Disney were alive today, he would want the Pastorale shown as filmed?

I don't think so

Roy Disney approved the restoration and alterations of the "Pastorale", and that's good enough for me. I don't need nor want to see the 1940 version, it serves no constructive purpose, other than the needs and wants of completionist Disney fans.

[ohmahaaha]

I've seen this for years as it is now and I never really noticed anything was missing until it was pointed out; and now that I know it's missing it doesn't bother me. I sometimes mind cuts and edits more for if they are done shabbily and obviously, than for the content of the edited bit. That way it is distracting.

[Escapay]

What's missing from the Pastoral Symphony?

[Maerj]

There were black (African American) Centurettes in the scene that were show doing the nails and hair of the other Centurettes. They had braided hair and I guess were considered possibly offensive. For more on the subject go to the main page and check out the FAQ. You will find all of the info there and a link to where you can even see those scenes.

[Loomis]

Roy Disney approved the restoration and alterations of the "Pastorale", and that's good enough for me. I don't need nor want to see the 1940 version, it serves no constructive purpose, other than the needs and wants of completionist Disney fans.

Yes, exactly.
Isn't that enough - that the fans want it?

As with all of these edits, I'm opposed to them because they are not the original version.

It is beside the point whether or not Walt would do it or even screen it that way today - the fact was he did, and it was screened that way and there is not getting around that. It is a part of not only Disney history, but a part of history more broadly, as it shows a reflection of race relations at the time.

Let's push this to an extreme. Let us say in 50 years from now the world decides that babies on screen is a offensive and cruel act to children. Do we then go back and remove all children from previous prints of films, because it suits the standards of 2054? Of course not.

If you can't see what the past was like, we can't see how much we've changed and perhaps improved.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but this is something I've said before. Some may say it is "just a small thing", what does it matter. I say - and this goes for all CENSORSHIP of Disney films - if it is such a small thingleave it in.

[Ernest Rister]

"Yes, exactly.
Isn't that enough - that the fans want it?"

No. Hell, no. Fans are sympathetic admirers at best, religious maniacs at worst. Fans are also deeply selfish and only think about their own desires and collections.

"As with all of these edits, I'm opposed to them because they are not the original version."

Ha! Fantasia is the most-altered film in film history, and it was never INTENDED to have an "original version". It was ALWAYS supposed to be in a state of flux, an ever changing film with titles cycling in and out like a radio show.

"It is beside the point whether or not Walt would do it or even screen it that way today"

No, it is the ONLY point. You know Walt Disney altered his films to avoid offending people, you know that by the end of his career he was making films celebrating diversity and making theme park rides celebrating the same diversity. Since the point of the matter when discussing alterations of an exisiting film is the intent of the producer and director, the assumption of Walt Disney's *present day* intentions are the ONLY consideration worthy of valuation.

Would Walt Disney want to offend people with Fantasia?

Hell, no.

Did Walt Disney censor and alter his own films to remove offensive ethnic stereotypes?

Yes, he did.

Based on that, did Roy E. Disney make the correct decision to crop the frames in the Pastorale sequence in Fantasia to remove offensive ethnic stereotypes?

YES.

Do fans have the right to demand to own that footage, regardless of the pain it might cause to African-American Disney fans?

NO! Your own selfish lust is not worth the pain and anger and hurt this may cause another. If you truly ARE a Disney fan, then you would recognize that if Walt were alive today, he would NEVER release the Pastorale in the 1940 version.

So be true to Walt and true to the spirit of the totality of his work, and LET IT GO.

You want to study "race relations of the time"? Go to the damn library.

[Loomis]

"Yes, exactly.
Isn't that enough - that the fans want it?"

No. Hell, no. Fans are sympathetic admirers at best, religious maniacs at worst. Fans are also deeply selfish and only think about their own desires and collections.

I forgot - you are above all us petty fan mortals, with our wishes and musings...

Roger Ebert quotes you in reviews. Great. Doesn't mean you have the right to run down every fan who has a "subjective opinion" on a subject.

You have just been arguing pretty hard over in the "Countdown" thread that some films are classic and that is that. Well, Walt released this movie - which is considered a classic by many - and that , as they say, is that. Should it not be available for release as it was shown? You'd give the same courtesy to you precious Citizen Kane if some of the content was questionable (it does, after all, ravage a notable media personality)? Or don't your convictions stretch that far?

ALL films - regardless of their impact - are a part of history. Be it Birth of Nation, Fantasia or Gigli. All of them have the right to be seen by all people for all of history. We can stick our heads in the sand and say they never happened, but that is just a denial of history.

You want to study "race relations of the time"? Go to the damn library.

Ok, I work in one - so that's pretty easy actually....

[Disney Guru]

Of all the segments of Disney animation crying out to be put on home viewing format unedited this is it. Perhaps as part of the compilation set or it could be included on the second silly symphonies set. Masses, give up hope of ever having the whole movie with this segment intact, just give us the segment that for too many years we have only seen grainy pan and scans, lopped and cropped, butcherded and edited versions of this leading animated classic. Please, powers that be, let us have Walts original Pastoral Symphony, warts and all!!!

I agree with you completely. They do really need to put tehm on DVD. I always loved those .

[Ernest Rister]

"Should it not be available for release as it was shown?"

Fantasia was never intended to be released in a single version. Walt himself called it a work-in-progress, and intended to make several alterations to it. Walt was also known to alter his films for the sensitivity of others. By demanding to see this footage, you are putting your own needs ahead of the offense and pain this may cause others as well as the damage this may cause the modern Disney family.

So once again -- LET IT GO.

[Chernabog]

"Should it not be available for release as it was shown?"

Fantasia was never intended to be released in a single version. Walt himself called it a work-in-progress, and intended to make several alterations to it. Walt was also known to alter his films for the sensitivity of others. By demanding to see this footage, you are putting your own needs ahead of the offense and pain this may cause others as well as the damage this may cause the modern Disney family.

So once again -- LET IT GO.

Why should we let it go?
Honestly I don´t like your tone here at all.
Are we not allowed to discuss something that are different than your opinion?
I think it´s you that must let it go, and accept that other people can and would have other thoughts than you have.
I don´t want to pick on you, but please let other say what they want also, without "hacking" down on them like you have done in this thread.

[Ernest Rister]

I've got strong opinions and strong feelings and I will express them, and I will not allow people to change the subject by attacking me on a personal basis. Do you think Walt Disney - who censored his own work in his lifetime to remove images that were considered insensitive to people of certain ethnic backgrounds - would want the Pastorale to be seen today in it's original form?

The answer is no. Roy E. Disney approved the alterations to the film, and they are fairly minor in the grand scheme of things.

Allow me to turn this thread on it's head...

WHY should the modern Walt Disney Company release materials containing offensive racial stereotypes onto the mass market?

Can someone give me a good reason besides hiding behind the blatant lie of "learning about American culture in 1940"? There are THOUSANDS of sources to turn to if you want to learn about racial and ehnic stereotypes in the 1940's.

Truth is, hardcore balls-to-the-wall Disney fans simply want to SEE the cut footage, and OWN their own copy of it.

That's the truth. So go ahead and attack me for calling a spade a spade, but that's the hard-core truth of the matter. I haven't been playing games in this thread, I've been calling you supposed Disney fans out. Don't try to con me witb supposed high-minded goals of "learning about American culture" in the 40's. Yeah, go try and spin that b.s. on someone with an IQ lower than a doorstop. Don't try to shuck and jive that garbage in front of me, I'll call you on it. I know you. This isn't about "learning about American culture". This is Fanboyism - MUST....COLLECT.....EVERY.....DISNEY.....FILM....IN....ORIGINAL....FORM!!! MUST OWN RARE STAMP! MUST OWN RARE DOLL! MUST SEE RARE CENSORED FOOTAGE FROM FANTASIA!

Learning about American culture my eye.

I'll ask it again -- WHY should the modern Disney company release a version of a film with blatant, hurtful, offensive ethnic stereotypes onto the mass market? WHY? What POSSIBLE good could it serve, other than satisfying the lust of fanboy Disney completionists?

[Chernabog]

I don´t think anyone here mean with the words "stop" that you should not have your opinion. Of course you should have that, but that goes along with all of us here. WE have our opinion and that is not something that you should critizise, which you actually have been doing recently.
Accept that we think different in some cases, and we will surely do the same for you.

And back to the subject of this tread:
Remember, what will we have out on DVD in May.
A heavy dozen of thoughts and manners during the war years in the 40´s.
I´m speaking of the shorts and propaganda films in ON THE FRONTLINE, which are racical, onesided propaganda, a very "off that time"-thinking and so on.
These they have brought up from the vaults where they had stayed for so many years - put there on order by Walt himself.
If we can see this, why can´t we see the black centurettes in Fantasia?
And in both cases there is the Disney Company who decides what we can see or not see!

[Chernabog]

Why should things be hided, I wonder?
Is THAT not to try to change a history that was there?
Why should you read about this things on other places?
Is it not important to understand that also our favorite studio had these thoughts and views in some cases.
To cut them away from it´s original place is not good "storytelling" in the historical point of wiev.
All do misstakes and all regret something sometimes.
Walt Disney did as many else.
He was no God or superhuman.
But since they don´t follow his wishes and demands on so many other subjects in The Company today, I can´t see why they keep on with this one so hard, when they had done much more worse things than a black centaurette polishing another white ones hooves.

Propably we WILL NOT see this segment again, I admit that. But I think it´s mostly becasue it´s so fameous and discussed, that they will not bring it on again.
We will see if the cartoons from the war in all their "glory" will wake up a likeminded discussion.
Maybe that is the last we see of controversial Disney subjects?
And if not....bring forth the full scene in the Pastoral Symphony

[Ernest Rister]

"If we can see this, why can´t we see the black centurettes in Fantasia?"

Are the Japanese people an opressed minority in America? Were they kidnapped from their native land, brought to the continent of North America, and forced to perform manual labor? Were the German people forced to stand and watch while their wives and children were abused or sold to another white land owner? Have Japanese and German Americans inherited a legacy of poverty, abuse, and illiteracy? Are there Japanese and German ghettos in America's largest cities to this very day?

Why are you allowed to see American War Propaganda from the 1940's, but aren't allowed to see racist ethnic stereotypes of African-Americans?

Do I need to really answer that question?

For the Japanese and the Germans, the War is over.

For the African-American people, the war has never ended. It still goes on. The war of secession may have ended in the 1860's. The American Civil War promising equality to all -- that war has yet to be won.

Come to Los Angeles some day. I'll take you south of the 10 and I'll show you exactly what I'm talking about.

[Chernabog]

"If we can see this, why can´t we see the black centurettes in Fantasia?"

Are the Japanese people an opressed minority in America? Were they kidnapped from their native land, brought to the continent of North America, and forced to perform manual labor? Were the German people forced to stand and watch while their wives and children were abused or sold to another white land owner? Have Japanese and German Americans inherited a legacy of poverty, abuse, and illiteracy? Are there Japanese and German ghettos in America's largest cities to this very day?

Why are you allowed to see American War Propaganda from the 1940's, but aren't allowed to see racist ethnic stereotypes of African-Americans?

Do I need to really answer that question?

For the Japanese and the Germans, the War is over.

For the African-American people, the war has never ended. It still goes on. The war of secession may have ended in the 1860's. The American Civil War promising equality to all -- that war has yet to be won.

Come to Los Angeles some day. I'll take you south of the 10 and I'll show you exactly what I'm talking about.

And that statement should make it "allowed" and "accepted" to do cuttings in films?
I simply can´t understand this!
Why is it not more important to show all this things instead?
If you cut them away from every work they appear in, how should people then know that just this company, just this picture was thinking in the same way as so many did back then?
I can´t agree with this opinion, even though I know that many/the most have it.
In this way of "hiding" it all, I can´t see any battle won!
It should be better to let "ALL" know how it really was - also in Walt Disney´s world (and his mind!)!

And according to me, racical is racical, whatever you call it.
Just because the Germans and the Japaneses war is over, that make those statements and showing not racical?
Come on...

[Little Red Henski]

As a black person I feel I must respond to this topic. I don't agree with any censorship. The Pastrol scene may offend some black people but it doesn't offend me. What offends me is being lied to on the cover of the DVD. The censorship to Fantasia was done after Walt's death. I would think that Politically Correct crowd would be more concered with the black stereotypes in modern movies. Those stereotypes are a lot more damaging then anything from the golden age of Hollywood.

[Chernabog]

The censorship to Fantasia was done after Walt's death.

Hello and welcome to the forum.
Must correct you a little only in you above statement.
The censorship to Fantasia was DONE on Walts own demands, during his lifetime.

[Ernest Rister]

"And that statement should make it "allowed" and "accepted" to do cuttings in films?"

No, that statement explains why fundamental decency demands that a people still under the boot heel of systemic racism doesn't need the WALT DISNEY company parading racist stereotypes in front of them and other Americans. I'm sorry, but in the Grand Scheme of Things, the offense of insulting someone by presenting a racial stereotype outweighs the sin of altering a Walt Disney film that Walt Disney himself would have surely altered had he lived long enough to see how such images would impact modern Americans today.

"I simply can´t understand this!"

Obviously.

"Why is it not more important to show all this things instead?"

Because you're not black. How do I know? Your question is all I need.

Let that sink in before you respond.

You were not born a young African-American. You were not born already statistically more likely to wind up in prison than a white child - more likely to wind up a drug addict than a white child - more likely to die at an earlier age than a white child.

For the Germans and the Japanese, the War is over. For the African-Americans, the war continues. If you cannot grasp this simple American truth, then there is no point in discussing this subject further.

"If you cut them away from every work they appear in, how should people then know that just this company, just this picture was thinking in the same way as so many did back then?"

Oh, please - spare me this infantile argument. If you want to learn about cultural racism in the 30's and 40's, there are hordes of examples at your beck and call, just on the internet alone. What possible knowledge is gained by adding the black centaurettes in Fantasia to the thousands of examples? The truth is, you just want to have a rare item. The centaurette footage is no different than a rare coin or a rare baseball card or a rare postage stamp. You don't give a damn about who it might hurt or offend or damage, you just want your rare precious item. Spare me the pathetic argument that we will gain some important new insight to American culture by seeing racist ethnic stereotypes in the "Pastorale" sequence of Fantasia.

"I can´t agree with this opinion, even though I know that many/the most have it. In this way of "hiding" it all, I can´t see any battle won! It should be better to let "ALL" know how it really was - also in Walt Disney´s world (and his mind!)!"

Bull@#$%. You're a Disney fan who wants to own the rare footage no one else has. You don't care about Walt's "mind" or his wishes or his thoughts. You just lust after some rare piece of Disneyana and criticize Disney for not allowing you to own it, not giving a damn about who might be hurt in the process.

"And according to me, racical is racical, whatever you call it.
Just because the Germans and the Japaneses war is over, that make those statements and showing not racical?
Come on..."

No, Einstein. Modern German and Japanese Americans recognize the actions of their countries, forcing America to respond. They know why America identified their people as enemies.

For the African-American people, they did not attack America or declare war. Their ancestors were kidnapped and enslaved and forcibly located to the North American continent to serve on plantations. For generations, they have struggled under slavery, or economic apartheid. Do you realize that the American Civil Rights Act is only 40 years old? 40 years ago, it was legal to force African-Americans to sit at the back of a bus.

In this context, you see no difference between WWII propaganda, and racist ethnic stereotypes in Fantasia? Are you kidding?