How does that change the fact that religious motives drive these men to blow themselves up, which they wouldn''t do if it wasn't for religion?Disney's Divinity wrote:According to some, who most Muslims say misinterpret the text.Goliath wrote:Are you insane?! If a muslims blows himself up for an islamic cause, he becomes a "martyr" and will be rewarded by Allah in the afterlife (most commonly named are the 72 virgins).
Yet Another Religion Thread
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There are plenty of people who will kill themselves for war purposes that have nothing to do with religion (like the Japanese in World War 2, for example). That wouldn't disappear if religion suddenly ceased to exist.Goliath wrote:How does that change the fact that religious motives drive these men to blow themselves up, which they wouldn''t do if it wasn't for religion?
Listening to most often lately:
Ariana Grande ~ "we can't be friends (wait for your love)"
Ariana Grande ~ "imperfect for you"
Kacey Musgraves ~ "The Architect"
But that still doesn't change the fact that religion is the cause for a lot of wrong things in the world. Whether it's a religious institution or just the religious text, it's both religion. And to use the example of interpretation is a bit of a copt-out, with all due respect. Because there is nobody who would be the definite authority on how to "correctly" interpret these texts. A lot of religious people tend to say what the extremists are wrong for interpreting holy texts literally, but an extremist has a pretty solid case when he was to counter-argue: "who are you, mere mortal being, to have so much hubris as to question the Holy Word?" It's true: if these books are so holy, then why should we 'interpret' them anything other than literally? And if we do interpret them literally, we read in the Bible for example (I haven't read the Qu'ran, so I can't quote from that) that a man who lies with another man like a man lies with a woman (= homosexual) should be put to death. As should people who work on the sabbath. And people who shave. Or eat shrimp. (Yeah, it's a bit of a crazy book.) And that it's okay to hold slaves. Or to buy off rape. So to say it's the religious institutions who are to blame and not the texts themselves, is wrong.Sotiris wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what Disney's Divinity is trying to say is that religion, as faith in isolation, is not the cause for all of these misfortunes but the religious institutions behind them. Religious texts as all texts are subjects to interpretation; it is the religious institutions which impose a certain meaning on them. And it's people's fault who chose to accept and follow those meanings uncritically.
Are you incapable of reading what I write or are you just pretending that I didn't write it, so you don't have to adress it?Disney's Divinity wrote:There are plenty of people who will kill themselves for war purposes that have nothing to do with religion (like the Japanese in World War 2, for example). That wouldn't disappear if religion suddenly ceased to exist.
I already adressed what you just wrote. Numerous times. So has Dr. Frankenollie. Multiple times.
So please stop pretending we didn't adress and completely debunked that false dichotomy already. This isn't a Disney Essence debate where people can just go: "lalalalalala, can't hear you, lalalalala"!
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I didn't know I was pretending anything. And I don't agree it's a false dichotomy. People still kill, only the excuse is different.Goliath wrote: So please stop pretending we didn't adress and completely debunked that false dichotomy already. This isn't a Disney Essence debate where people can just go: "lalalalalala, can't hear you, lalalalala"!
Listening to most often lately:
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Ariana Grande ~ "imperfect for you"
Kacey Musgraves ~ "The Architect"
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Fair enough.Dr Frankenollie wrote:I do, but God is not the answer. I personally think that the existence of a potential 'God', an omnipotent, all-powerful, infinitely complex being, is much more difficult to explain than the existence of the universe.Super Aurora wrote:But you could also ask yourself how does any thing in and itself begins.
Although I would say a Deist's perception of a God is far better than that of a Christian's or Jewish or Islamic perception of a God.
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I know Goliath has replied to this already, but...WTF?! Of course there are plenty of people who would kill themselves for non-religious reasons and they wouldn't disappear if religion suddenly ceased to exist, but that's irrelevant.Disney's Divinity wrote:There are plenty of people who will kill themselves for war purposes that have nothing to do with religion (like the Japanese in World War 2, for example). That wouldn't disappear if religion suddenly ceased to exist.
There are also plenty of people who do kill themselves for religious reasons; if religion had never existed, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE KILLED THEMSELVES! Don't use nonsensical arguments that don't properly address your opponent's point!
Why is the fact that religion has caused ridiculous amounts of pain and misery over the years so hard to grasp?
@Super Aurora: Yes, a deist does have a more logical and intelligent belief system than a Christian, Muslim or Jew, etc.
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It's not irrelevant. My point is that everybody is going on and on about how the world would be so much better if religion didn’t exist (as their excuse for always going nutcrackers on anyone who follows x religion). The fact is, it wouldn’t. People would still kill/condemn themselves and one another, with or without religion. Especially since most wars "disguised" as being fueled by religious reasons are usually at their root about politics, resources, or power anyway.Dr Frankenollie wrote:Of course there are plenty of people who would kill themselves for non-religious reasons and they wouldn't disappear if religion suddenly ceased to exist, but that's irrelevant.
Listening to most often lately:
Ariana Grande ~ "we can't be friends (wait for your love)"
Ariana Grande ~ "imperfect for you"
Kacey Musgraves ~ "The Architect"
I'm not saying the world would be better overall without religion, because we agree with you that there would still be violence. That's obvious. However, there is no denying that without religion, MANY heinous acts would have never been committed and many lives would have been spared. Would the world be better without religion? Who knows, but that's not the argument. The argument is that religion HAS indubitably caused many unnecessary deaths and much violence throughout history, because you originally stated that there would be the same amount of violence regardless of religion... and I find it impossible to believe due to the fact of innumerable amounts of deaths that have been proven through history to be based on religious beliefs.Disney's Divinity wrote:It's not irrelevant. My point is that everybody is going on and on about how the world would be so much better if religion didn’t exist (as their excuse for always going nutcrackers on anyone who follows x religion). The fact is, it wouldn’t. People would still kill/condemn themselves and one another, with or without religion. Especially since most wars "disguised" as being fueled by religious reasons are usually at their root about politics, resources, or power anyway.
"Good and bad are labels created by people. Nature doesn't have such concepts."
Aha! Finally! There it is! You feel personally attacked by people who criticize religion, because you're religious yourself! And that's why you pretend that we haven't already debunked what you wrote above four times. You repeat and repeat and repeat, because if you would admit that with following cold, factual logic, you would see that we are right and that there's no flaw in our reasoning at all --and thus you would have to admit that indeed, the world would be better off without religion because religion causes violence that otherwise wouldn't have been there, because there would have been no reason for it.Disney's Divinity wrote:It's not irrelevant. My point is that everybody is going on and on about how the world would be so much better if religion didn’t exist (as their excuse for always going nutcrackers on anyone who follows x religion). [...]
But go ahead, continue to play stupid and pretend that we say that there would be *no* violence without religion --which we don't. Enjoy your strawman!
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I thought you wouldn't indulge. I guess it's too ingrained.
You don't think people would have found reasons to commit the same heinous acts? In most cases, there are more substantial reasons underlying the religious face of it (such as an instinctual hate of difference, a desire to control the government and/or public, anger at economic disparity, etc.). How is religion any different from, say, the media which also brainwashes? If you grew up in a household with parents who hate x kind of people, wouldn't you most likely hate those type of people regardless of whether religion was tied into it? Religion seems to get the blame for the ways people are influenced by their parents and childhood naturally. Which is the same reason most people follow the same religion their parents inherited.Heartless wrote:However, there is no denying that without religion, MANY heinous acts would have never been committed and many lives would have been spared.
Listening to most often lately:
Ariana Grande ~ "we can't be friends (wait for your love)"
Ariana Grande ~ "imperfect for you"
Kacey Musgraves ~ "The Architect"
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Yes but the point I was trying to make was that just because some one is religious doesn't mean they will accept everything that religion tells them is right. The reason of being indoctrinated from a young age is no longer an excuse especially in Western societies where information is so widely available and accessible.Goliath wrote:But that still doesn't change the fact that religion is the cause for a lot of wrong things in the world. Whether it's a religious institution or just the religious text, it's both religion.
It seems that a lot of people wish to believe in a higher force than themselves. Well, they can keep their faith without embracing all aspects of religion. I just don't agree with the idea that religion just brainwashes people and they no longer have a choice. People can reconcile their faith with what is considered ethically and morally correct nowadays by reinterpreting the religious texts or denouncing parts of them (for example, I've heard that some Christians only go by the teachings of the New Testament).
Although violence and misfortune would still occur without religion (because of politics, intolerance towards difference and any form of personal gain), it would significantly eradicate.Disney's Divinity wrote:The fact is, it wouldn't. People would still kill/condemn themselves and one another, with or without religion. Especially since most wars "disguised" as being fueled by religious reasons are usually at their root about politics, resources, or power anyway.
Regardless of whether religious wars and turmoil are fueled by underlying reasons of politics and power or whether people instigating them truly believe they are committing God's will, without religion violence and hatred would indeed lessen.
Yeah, I enjoy seeing you making a fool of yourself.Disney's Divinity wrote:I thought you wouldn't indulge. I guess it's too ingrained.
... and all that STILL doesn't change the fact that a lot of violence and harm is being done in the name of religion. Doesn't matter that people are being indoctrinated from a young age or that they do selective reading of religious texts. That STILL means religion is the cause. Had those people not being indoctrinated by religion... See where I'm going?Sotiris wrote:Yes but the point I was trying to make was that just because some one is religious doesn't mean they will accept everything that religion tells them is right. The reason of being indoctrinated from a young age is no longer an excuse especially in Western societies where information is so widely available and accessible.
Yes, they can. And they should. But not all do that. And that doesn't make them any less 'real' christian/muslim/jew/whathaveyou than those who do good, because both the 'good ones' and 'bad ones' use the same source to justify their deeds.Sotiris wrote:It seems that a lot of people wish to believe in a higher force than themselves. Well, they can keep their faith without embracing all aspects of religion. I just don't agree with the idea that religion just brainwashes people and they no longer have a choice. People can reconcile their faith with what is considered ethically and morally correct nowadays by reinterpreting the religious texts or denouncing parts of them (for example, I've heard that some Christians only go by the teachings of the New Testament).
You can say that untill you're blue in the face, DD will keep building up the same strawman.Sotiris wrote:Although violence and misfortune would still occur without religion (because of politics, intolerance towards difference and any form of personal gain), it would significantly eradicate.
Regardless of whether religious wars and turmoil are fueled by underlying reasons of politics and power or whether people instigating them truly believe they are committing God's will, without religion violence and hatred would indeed lessen.
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I am sick of this. Disney's Divinity has been right. Here's my own explanation that may finally stop this:
Different races exist in the world. Race is not bad in itself. People have sued and still use them for bad things such as violence and death.
Different beliefs and religions exist in the world. Religion is not bad in itself. People have used and still use them for bad things such as violence and death.
If you say that the world would be better without religion, you must also say it would be better with out race. And this can be applied to a lot of other things that people use to justify terrible acts.
It is not religion itself that is bad and the world would be better without. It is the bad people, or more accurately, the people’s terrible choices/acts.
I'll get to the other stuff like Dr. Frankenollie and Super Aurora later.
Different races exist in the world. Race is not bad in itself. People have sued and still use them for bad things such as violence and death.
Different beliefs and religions exist in the world. Religion is not bad in itself. People have used and still use them for bad things such as violence and death.
If you say that the world would be better without religion, you must also say it would be better with out race. And this can be applied to a lot of other things that people use to justify terrible acts.
It is not religion itself that is bad and the world would be better without. It is the bad people, or more accurately, the people’s terrible choices/acts.
I'll get to the other stuff like Dr. Frankenollie and Super Aurora later.
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So...if you're anti-religious you're also racist? I don't think the comparison between the two is apt.Disney Duster wrote:If you say that the world would be better without religion, you must also say it would be better with out race. And this can be applied to a lot of other things that people use to justify terrible acts.
It is not religion itself that is bad and the world would be better without. It is the bad people, or more accurately, the people’s terrible choices/acts.
I'll get to the other stuff like Dr. Frankenollie and Super Aurora later.
Yes, religion is not perpetually a bad thing. Yes, people sometimes just use it as an excuse, and/or a weapon to get support, etc. But can't you see that sometimes religion can be responsible?
Imagine a young boy, who was taught from an early age that his God was the lord and saviour of the world, and was brainwashed into worshipping him ritualistically. He admires and loves his fictitious God, and when he starts reading Holy Books, he learns that his God wants him to convert people to his religion (some holy books do encourage that).
So what does he do? Why, he does the thing that he believees to be 'good' and 'right' and 'loving', and tries to 'save' everyone by converting them! And along the road to adulthood, this young boy became a murderous terrorist - one who didn't seek power or money, who wasn't using religion as an excuse, but honestly believed he was doing the Lord's will.
I don't find something like that hard to believe, and I'm sure that not all religious terrorists throughout history simply used 'God' as an excuse. Sometimes they do it for some twisted, unnatural 'love' for their God.
Therefore, if the corrupt, evil holy books of the world didn't exist, there would be a lot less pain, misery, etc. Religion is just another motive for evil like greed and being power hungry.
No, he hasn't. He has just been repeating what already has been debunked until he got blue in the face.Disney Duster wrote:I am sick of this. Disney's Divinity has been right.
You don't choose your race. Race is not a belief. Race does not dictate rules. Race does not have holy texts. Race is not something you follow. The comparison is ludicrous, even by your standards.Disney Duster wrote:Here's my own explanation that may finally stop this:
Different races exist in the world. Race is not bad in itself. People have sued and still use them for bad things such as violence and death.
No, the world would be better off without *racism*, not without 'race'. How do you imagine that? People stopped being white or black?Disney Duster wrote:If you say that the world would be better without religion, you must also say it would be better with out race. And this can be applied to a lot of other things that people use to justify terrible acts.
But then again, without religion, I would never have had the pleasure of listening to Bob Dylan's album Slow Train Coming.
Last edited by Goliath on Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bill Maher explains why atheïsm is definitly not a religion (like many conservatives keep on claiming); explains why atheïsm and religion are not equally valuable; and... well you have to watch for yourself to see what he does at the end, it's too hilarious to describe.
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Dr. Frankenollie, what should be viewed as negative is still the boy's actions, not the religion. With a person like him, anyone could convince him of any kind of information that may act on in a negative way.
Goliath, yes, I'm making an analogy in which the only things they have in common are that both things are not inherently bad but people can act badly upon them and the world would not be a better place just because either of them were removed. Those are the only things I was comparing. Was all I needed.
Goliath, yes, I'm making an analogy in which the only things they have in common are that both things are not inherently bad but people can act badly upon them and the world would not be a better place just because either of them were removed. Those are the only things I was comparing. Was all I needed.
What? If race was removed, it would definitely solve a major social problem in the world... racism. Even if its not inherently bad, many problems revolving around race have always occurred throughout history and continue to cause problems today. If race was removed, racism would automatically be thrown out with it.Disney Duster wrote:Goliath, yes, I'm making an analogy in which the only things they have in common are that both things are not inherently bad but people can act badly upon them and the world would not be a better place just because either of them were removed. Those are the only things I was comparing.
Just because something isn't inherently bad does NOT mean that it doesn't still cause major problems. Race and religion both have caused many deaths and much violence throughout history. I understand that people are acting upon this, but removing both from the equation would remove massive amounts of conflicts and violence from ever occurring (simply because there would be nothing to act upon in the first place). Fact.
Also another tidbit I came across today.. 809 million people have died in religion wars.
"Good and bad are labels created by people. Nature doesn't have such concepts."