Abortion: Good or Bad?

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Disney Duster
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Post by Disney Duster »

Dr Frankenollie wrote:
Sotiris wrote:I believe that it's quite unfair (to say the least) to force a woman to keep an unwanted pregnancy just because of a mistake or worse, a sexual assault. Forcing her to go through 9 months of emotional and physical anguish, and go through a painful labor where it's possible to die and then go through post-natal depression all for a pregnancy she never wanted. It could ruin her life forever.
Sotiris specified the rape case, not me.
She said a mistake or a sexual assault. So that wasn't specifying, that was saying either or. Then I asked which is worse, having an abortion or having a baby after carrying it for 9 months. I didn't say which is worse, having an abortion or having a baby after 9 months after a sexual attack.

And I'm pretty sure there's some trauma or at least bad feelings from having abortions and then sometimes from giving up a baby. I'd like to know which is worse.
Alphapanchito wrote:I think further discussion on this would best take place in the "Gay" thread, because I wouldn't want to derail this thread any more than it already is, and I'm assuming gay includes the whole lgbT spectrum. I would love to further understand your views on this, because I do respect your point on most of your arguments.
The right thing to do would be to make a seperate thread about transgender. It's simply not the same as gay. The gay thread doesn't say LGBT thread. You've got some pretty good debate points, by the way.
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Post by Sotiris »

Disney Duster wrote:She said a mistake or a sexual assault.
I'm a "he". :P Below my username it says "Gender: Male"!
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Post by Goliath »

Sotiris wrote:Rare or not, it was you who proposed an absolute binary. And you still haven't addressed the issue of how you would "classify" an intersex person. Wouldn't you refer to them by the way they identify and present themselves? That was the point I was trying to make. Sex is biological signification. Gender is a social construct. Although these terms are used interchangeably in every day usage, they are not the same.
I don't have to adress the issue of how to 'classify' those persons, because I'm not interested in making any classification. But I guess when dealing with an 'intersex' person, I'd leave it up to that person to pick either 'male' or 'female'. That's all the flavors there are. I don't know that I agree that gender is a 'social construct'. I know it has been hip in sociological circles for the last 30 years to say so, but I'm not enterily sold on it.

Alphapanchito wrote:No.. I was talking about people born as a female (physically) and later transition to present as a man.. Which I believe is the opposite of what you just said.
My bad. Also, my apologies for being fairly harsh in my last reply. I just came from another discussion forum which has pretty much been ruined since a couple of months because of some self-appointed language purists on the PC-patrol. I see a lot of that 'attitude' in your posts, but I shouldn't have lashed out the way I did anyway. So once again, my apologies.
Alphapanchito wrote:Wow.. but.. they aren't women. They just aren't. Being a women does not mean having any physical trait. If someone was born with a penis, is there exactly no way that they can ever be a women in your book?
If they do away with their penis (removed through surgery) and get on hormones which let their breasts grow and gets their voices up etc., then they ultimately become a woman. But if you have a penis and you put on a dress and lipstick, no, you're not a woman. That's a fact. Period.
Alphapanchito wrote:No offense, but you seem not to know much about it and are just saying what you think might be true. Gender is, in fact, a social construct, and the fact is undeniable. Ask anyone slightly involved in gender issues. And our gender is whatever we feel we are, not what happens to be in our pants.
That's not a fact, that's opinion, like I said to Sotiris; an opinion that is very popular in some academic circles. I think you get different points of view when you ask a sociologist and a biologist about gender. That's hardly 'consensus'.
Alphapanchito wrote:Sex is the thing that is determined by nature. What makes us feel more "masculine" or "feminine" based on society's standards is in our brains. Which one can physically see the difference between a standard "male" brain and one who identifies as a women, but was born male.
I don't deny the fact that there are 'masculine' women and 'feminine' men. I also don't deny this is based in our brains. (Though Disney Duster undoubtedly will say it comes from our 'spirit' or 'soul', because if we believe our brain is accountable for anything, we become robots or puppets. :lol:) I don't even deny that there are people who think they are 'in the wrong body', e.g. a man thinking that he needs to be a woman. But that doesn't *make* him a woman.
Alphapanchito wrote:Want me to include statistics? Sadly, the statistics on this stuff aren't the best, because non-cis people aren't exactly safe to put all this on their census. The best estimates range from 1 in every thousand to 1 in every 100,000 being transgender. Thats a little more helpful than pulling numbers out of the air. [...]
Yes, but you are talking about men who went through some form of surgery to become a woman... or the other way around: a woman turning into a man. That's not how you presented it at first. You presented it as if there were many men (men from birth) who had a uterus and thus could get pregnant. And that's simply not the case; they all need surgical help. So I don't really count them.
Alphapanchito wrote:I understand what you mean by me being over PC just for the sake of being overly PC. But.. how is being inclusive of tens of thousands of people being overly PC? [...]
Like I said, I wrote that before you made the clarification that this was about transgender people. Before, you suggested it was about natural-born men who got pregnant, which, of course, is hogwash. So it's good that has been cleared up and we both know what we're talking about. Yet, to return to the topic of this thread: somebody was trying to talk some sense and humanity in judgemental Disney Duster who just glanced over pregnancy through rape (said women should just "get over it") and then you added we should include men in that discussion as well --which we now know is not about men from birth. Should we include men? No, since it's about women turning into men through surgery, and if they've become men, they must not have a vagina anymore, so exactly how are they going to get pregnant through rape? The answer is: not.
Alphapanchito wrote:Okay, I am going to assume you are cis (meaning you identify as the same gender as the sex you were born in), and I'm sorry, but you just don't have the right to misgender people like that. [...]
:lol: 'Misgender'? Did you just make up that word? It's really not hard: penis = man; vagina = woman. Like I said above, you may think you're a man who wants to be a woman, but that doesn't *make* you a woman (and vice versa).
Alphapanchito wrote:I bring my argument to Ms. Kim Petras. Look her up if you care. Would you honestly tell someone like this that she is a boy? Just because she was born with a penis? She got the full Sexual Reassignment Surgery at 16, so was she a boy up until that fateful moment, despite years of prior hormone therapy and a life of living as a girl? [...]
You said it yourself: this person got through surgery and became a woman. Thus at age 16, she stopped being a boy and became a woman.
Alphapanchito wrote:[...] Beating a dead horse, but this is why gender is a social construct. If you present as a girl, you are considered a girl by society. [...]
Nope. If you're a boy and you put on make-up and a dress and present yourself as a girl, 'society' is not considering you a girl. I bet... no, I know for sure... most people would not call a boy who behaved that way anything other than a boy. In a dress, yes, with make-up on, yes, but a boy nonetheless. That whole gender-as-a-social-construct is the way you *wish* society worked, but it doesn't.
Alphapanchito wrote:And no, they aren't "tricking" anybody. Because they really do feel they are a certain gender, just as much as you feel you are male.
Who said anything about tricking? If they think they are the opposite sex and want to change that, more power to them! But don't pretent a man isn't a man until he becomes a woman.
Alphapanchito wrote:You are confusing sex with gender, and while doing this, you are totally stripping people of their identity [...]
Oh, quit the drama, please.
Alphapanchito wrote:[...] I will say again, if one says they are a certain gender, they are, and thats that.
No. A man can tell me he's a woman a thousand times, that doesn't make him one. He's still a man. You have a very strange logic. Following your logic: I go stand on the corner of the street saying I'm a tree. Do people have to acknowledge I'm a tree or otherwise they're "stripping me of my identity"?
Alphapanchito wrote:A cisgender (again, assuming) man does not have the authority do deny anyone this identity, because you aren't trans.
Again, quit the drama. I'm not denying anyone anything, I'm just stating some plain simple facts and you can talk 'till you're blue in the face, I'm still not gonna call a person something he/she is not.
Alphapanchito wrote:[...] I just don't understand your reasoning, or how you came up with it.
I bet most people in the real world (you know, outisde of the textbook theories you keep repeating) have no trouble at all understanding me. Not to say that the majority is always right, of course, but still... I bet you nobody in the real world has any problems following me.

Thanks for having this discussion. Of course I respect your opinions, too, but I'm not agreeing with them at all.
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Post by Sotiris »

Goliath, I think you haven't understood what gender theorists mean when they say that gender is a social construct. Society will not check your pants to see if you have male or female genitalia but it will classify you as either male or female based on how you look and how you behave. Take for example the character of Brandon Teena portrayed by Hilary Swank in the film Boys Don't Cry. Although she had female genitalia, society perceived her as a man because of how she looked, how she behaved and how she presented herself.
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Post by Goliath »

Sotiris wrote:Goliath, I think you haven't understood when gender theorists mean when they say that gender is a social construct.
I do, I just don't agree with it.
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Post by Alphapanchito »

Goliath wrote: My bad. Also, my apologies for being fairly harsh in my last reply. […]
No problem, I didn't think you were that harsh. I, too, apologize for coming off as a drama queen. I had a really tough day and came home to find your reply, and just kinda let everything out. I didn't even read through it before I posted, which explains the many typos :p.

EDIT: Everything below is an extremely long winded response to Goliath, expertly summarized by Sotiris' post two above mine.
Goliath wrote: If they do away with their penis (removed through surgery) and get on hormones which let their breasts grow and gets their voices up etc., then they ultimately become a woman. But if you have a penis and you put on a dress and lipstick, no, you're not a woman. That's a fact. Period.
Okay, I was being a little idealist. I don't expect people to believe that someone is a woman just because they say so. I know thats not what goes down in the real world. But all I'm saying is thats how it should be. However, you still equating woman to having a vagina and men to having a penis doesn't make sense to me. Because you don't see that penis under that dress. So why is having a penis such a big deal? And vice versa. In most situations, people aren't looking in your pants, so what you have down there does not determine your gender. I'm not saying that if a 6'5" man goes down in a dress and lipstick with a full on beard, he's going to be accepted by society as a women. If he felt he was a woman, he should be seen as one, but I know that is not how it the world works. What I am saying is if a person feels like a girl, and looks like a girl enough for society, why is she still a man until she doesn't have a penis any longer. And vice versa.


Goliath wrote:Yes, but you are talking about men who went through some form of surgery to become a woman... or the other way around: a woman turning into a man. That's not how you presented it at first. You presented it as if there were many men (men from birth) who had a uterus and thus could get pregnant. And that's simply not the case; they all need surgical help. So I don't really count them.
I didn't mean to present it in a confusing way. Re-reading it, I see how that confusion began. My apologies, my mistake.

But I do count them. Because they are still men, despite being born with different parts. And I explained above why even if they don't get surgery to change that, they are still men because thats what society sees them as. Again, if you see a man, that looks like a man, but has a vagina with a phallus, would you call him a woman? No, because you wouldn't know! So thats why I originally thought they should be included (not specified, but just by using a more inclusive term. how about.. people?) when talking about both rape and abortion, because both happens to trans men. Who are men. Because thats how they are seen in society. But they also have vaginas and uteruses. Thats the heart of my point.

Goliath wrote: You said it yourself: this person got through surgery and became a woman. Thus at age 16, she stopped being a boy and became a woman.
But see, this is where I don't think your argument adds up. You say that Kim became a women on the day she got her surgery.. but she was also accepted by everyone around her as a women (or in this case; a girl), because nobody could doubt that she looked like one. She had breasts from hormones, and nobody that didn't know her past would ever know that she was anything but a girl. She was raised as a girl. And society and everyone around her saw her as a girl, even before that day, that changed nothing that was normally visible, anyway. Why do you consider her a boy while everyone else considered her a girl? And again, her story is not rare. This is why I don't think equating men to penises and woman to vaginas ever works.

Goliath wrote:No. A man can tell me he's a woman a thousand times, that doesn't make him one. He's still a man. You have a very strange logic. Following your logic: I go stand on the corner of the street saying I'm a tree. Do people have to acknowledge I'm a tree or otherwise they're "stripping me of my identity"?
But what if that man looks like a girl? Because he presents as one, and looks no different than any other woman? Unless you happen to pull down her pants. And then she becomes a man to you? And no, because trees don't usually talk ;).

I didn't reply to everything, because I believe I replied to everything, and anything else would just be more repetition. It seems like the only disagreement we truly have is that I think a girl is a girl as long as society sees her as a girl, and you think penis=man, vagina=women. It's really just a opinion difference, I guess, and there is really no point in further argument. I would like to thank you for being relatively civil, though. Because I know sometimes your arguments can get pretty dirty, but this was pleasant. I really do appreciate it.

Okay, I am very sorry for bringing this thread so off topic. That wasn't my intention. Everyone can go on yelling at each other about abortion. I'll start you guys off.

"It IS murder"

"but its NOT ALIVE!111#!>241"

(psst, the above is a JOKE, the arguments in this whole thread are surprisingly civil)
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Post by Goliath »

I'm still going to reply to you, even though you seemed to want to end the discussion. I think that's the only civil to do. :)
Alphapanchito wrote:However, you still equating woman to having a vagina and men to having a penis doesn't make sense to me. Because you don't see that penis under that dress. So why is having a penis such a big deal? And vice versa. [...]
It's not "a big deal"; it's just the way biology works. And it wouldn't be civil to refer to somebody as "it" and therefore we make a distinction between men and women, and men have different genitalia than women, which is helpful when we want to make a distinction. Doesn't mean we have to go pulling down pants to check. No offense, but a transgender person is usually pretty easy to spot anyway; and no, I'm not talking about exaggerated stereotypes we see in the media.
Alphapanchito wrote:I'm not saying that if a 6'5" man goes down in a dress and lipstick with a full on beard, he's going to be accepted by society as a women. If he felt he was a woman, he should be seen as one, but I know that is not how it the world works.
But why *should* a 6'5" man with a beard in a dress get recognized as a woman? I don't mean to offend with the upcoming analogy (I can see why some people would be upset by it and therefore I'm already announcing I don't *really* make this equation), but whenever a psychiatric patient says he is really Napoleon, we don't recognize that just because he says it, do we? Even though his brains make him think he is.
Alphapanchito wrote:What I am saying is if a person feels like a girl, and looks like a girl enough for society, why is she still a man until she doesn't have a penis any longer. And vice versa.
Because that's how the sexes are defined. It's just the way it is.
Alphapanchito wrote:But see, this is where I don't think your argument adds up. You say that Kim became a women on the day she got her surgery.. but she was also accepted by everyone around her as a women [...] Why do you consider her a boy while everyone else considered her a girl?
What other people think is really irrelevant to matters of fact. Like, if ten people would say the sky is green and the grass is blue and I would be the one dissenting, that doesn't *make* the sky green or the grass blue. The same applies to this person: just because people say she is something, doesn't *make* her something.
Alphapanchito wrote:[...] It seems like the only disagreement we truly have is that I think a girl is a girl as long as society sees her as a girl, and you think penis=man, vagina=women.
Not that I think a man shouldn't change into a woman, if he thinks that's what he has to do (or vice versa). And once he's turned into a woman, I'll call her a woman. But I'm not going to say the sky is green.
Alphapanchito wrote:I would like to thank you for being relatively civil, though. Because I know sometimes your arguments can get pretty dirty, but this was pleasant. I really do appreciate it.
Sometimes, yes. But like I always say: it takes two to tango. So thanks for being so patient with me. ;)

I love how you said I was "relatively" civil! Well, I guess I deserved that. :P
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Post by Disney Duster »

Goliath wrote:
Alphapanchito wrote:Sex is the thing that is determined by nature. What makes us feel more "masculine" or "feminine" based on society's standards is in our brains. Which one can physically see the difference between a standard "male" brain and one who identifies as a women, but was born male.
I don't deny the fact that there are 'masculine' women and 'feminine' men. I also don't deny this is based in our brains.
If you believe that, then by the same logic you must believe something in the brain also makes them feel they are a man or a woman. Then you have to think "what is a person?" Their soul, their mind, their brain, their body?

It seems what you are going to do is never think that someone's soul or mind is female or male, and instead if you see a man's body with a woman's soul say that he is a woman, you are just going to call him a man, but not to her face because you wouldn't want to get in trouble.

I myself used to think that everyone should accept themselves as they were made, that if they were made men or women that is who they are and they should love that. I wish more research could go into making peopel who feel they were born in the wrong body accept and be comfortable with their body, the reason being you can't change your chromosomes and technically you can't become the other sex physically. A man who becomes a woman can't have a working uterus with eggs or a baby or anything. A woman who becomes a man can't get vas deferens that make sperm. You just can't really become the other one, nature is nature, science can't really change it. People just have to tell themselves it's a man or a woman, indeed it's all about believing. Except for science showing that apparently they have man's brains or woman's brains? Is that even true, or is everyone's brains shaped differently and they just are a little more masculine or feminine?
Goliath wrote:(Though Disney Duster undoubtedly will say it comes from our 'spirit' or 'soul', because if we believe our brain is accountable for anything, we become robots or puppets. :lol:)
>: ( You exaggerate. I think our brains are responsible for some things, like a a certain degree of our intelligence, maybe to a degree some of our interests. But then again of course I believe our souls chose a lot of how our brains turned out anyway. Maybe a soul that wanted to be male chose a male brain during it's development but something went wrong and it accidentally ended up with a female body it didn't want. Well, just thought I'd address something you brought up.
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Post by Goliath »

Disney Duster wrote:If you believe that, then by the same logic you must believe something in the brain also makes them feel they are a man or a woman.
I believe that. In fact, I know this to be true, it has been proven. But a man thinking he is/has to be a woman, doesn't *make* him a woman.
Disney Duster wrote:It seems what you are going to do is never think that someone's soul or mind is female or male, and instead if you see a man's body with a woman's soul say that he is a woman, you are just going to call him a man, but not to her face because you wouldn't want to get in trouble.
Not to his face? Why not? I'm not gonna call a man a woman.
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Post by Alphapanchito »

Goliath wrote:
Disney Duster wrote:It seems what you are going to do is never think that someone's soul or mind is female or male, and instead if you see a man's body with a woman's soul say that he is a woman, you are just going to call him a man, but not to her face because you wouldn't want to get in trouble.
Not to his face? Why not? I'm not gonna call a man a woman.
Sorry I never replied, I've been really busy and didn't have much time to form a response. Additionally, I kinda felt bad for kicking this thread of track, but nobody seems to be posting new replies on it for now anyway.. I do have a question about how you would refer to a transwomen. Lets say there was a beautiful girl (a lot of transwoman are really beautiful, oftentimes more so than many ciswomen). For the sake of argument, lets make her 17, because in most countries it is *usually* not legal to get sexual reassignment surgery before 18. And she is referred to as she by everyone around her. However, she still has a penis, and for some strange reason you know this information. As everyone around her was referring to her as with female pronouns and treating her as if she was a girl, and likewise, she is acting as a girl because that is not only how she was socialized, but thats who she is as a person. Would you seriously refer to her as he as everyone else, whether they know of her penis or not, refers to her as she, because thats how she presents? I just find that kind of mean and insensitive, not to mention confusing to everyone in the room. And you will also out her as being different too, which I don't think is very nice either. Would you really feel the need to call her a "he" in this situation, because you think your genitals have the final say on your gender?

By the way, the reason I tend to use people who transitioned at a younger age as an example is because those are the ones I've had more experience with in my life.

I am having issues with the quotes function, but the reason why I was saying that a tall bearded person, if she identified as a woman, should be referred to as a woman is because again, I believe that gender is socially based, and the only reason she would never be accepted in society as a woman (and I admit, I probably would have trouble calling her a "her" too) only because of social standards of beauty and how a woman should look. Most transwomen do all they can (hormones make a huge difference to everything physical- and mental, about a person) to pass as a woman. However, this person in question obviously doesn't care about these social beauty rules. Is a woman who doesn't shave her underarms to fit in with the current ideals of beauty not a woman? So, this large, manly woman in question would be considered a woman in a perfect world. But again, I'll be honest and say that I'd have trouble doing that (NOTE: I'd try to, if the person in question told me thats how she identified), especially because appearances are pretty important to me. It's one of my huge character flaws. But it shouldn't matter. But again, in our society, it does. Which is why most transpeople go through many different medical avenues to "pass" as the gender they feel. For some its very easy, for more masculine* ones, its more difficult.

And by the way, you mentioned that more often than not, you can spot them in a crowd.. This is not true at all. As I said before, many are insanely beautiful (or good looking). I may be biased because I've mostly communicated with trans youth, and transitions go much better if they happen before puberty did much damage. However, in any case, hormones really do make a huge difference to everything from facial features to hips to skin. Some never can pass as a woman, true, as in the example above. But your average transgender person will end up basically looking like an average cisgendered women, with the insanely beautiful ones who started younger and the ones who never pass as outliers. The reason you think you can spot them often is because.. you can spot them! You'd never know that someone who passed as a woman was anything but. And really, she isn't any different, but I'm trying to get into your frame of mind.

*During this, I assumed any trans person in question was a transwoman, but its obviously the same either way. Although transmen do have it easier because of the patriarchal society we live in.
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Post by Goliath »

Alphapanchito wrote:(a lot of transwoman are really beautiful, oftentimes more so than many ciswomen).
No.

Just no. They aren't. Not to men. They're very easy to spot, too.
Alphapanchito wrote:[...] Would you seriously refer to her as he as everyone else, whether they know of her penis or not, refers to her as she, because thats how she presents? I just find that kind of mean and insensitive, not to mention confusing to everyone in the room.
First of all, this is kind of a trick question because it involves a hypothetical and you dress it very eloborately, making it harder to be as objective as possible. Second, yes, I think I would do that. I can't say for sure, of course, as I would only know what I would do if I was actually in that situation and people often do different things in a real situation than they saod they would beforehand. But I don't think it would be mean or insensitive. I would totally support the sex-change and this person's wishes and dreams and goals, but if he was born a man and had not yet changed into a man, there is no logical or objective reason why I shouldn't refer to him as such.
Alphapanchito wrote:I am having issues with the quotes function, but the reason why I was saying that a tall bearded person, if she identified as a woman, should be referred to as a woman is because again, I believe that gender is socially based, and the only reason she would never be accepted in society as a woman (and I admit, I probably would have trouble calling her a "her" too) only because of social standards of beauty and how a woman should look.
No, no, no, it's not based on what a woman "should" look like. It's based on what a woman *actually* looks like. A woman is different than a man. A woman has two breasts and a vagina and a uterus, for starters. That's not a "social construct". It's just a biological fact. So the reason why a tall guy with a beard will not be seen as a woman is not because society is not "accepting" of it, but because he *is* a man and not a woman. Again, biological fact. And you can say that's only a societal construct, but it's not. Our reproductive system needs a man with a penis and a woman with a vagina for a reason. It's nature and nature doesn't do anything without purpose.
Alphapanchito wrote:Is a woman who doesn't shave her underarms to fit in with the current ideals of beauty not a woman?
That's a nonsensical comparison and you know it. Following trends or ideals is something completely different from having the biological signs of a woman.
Alphapanchito wrote:And by the way, you mentioned that more often than not, you can spot them in a crowd.. This is not true at all. As I said before, many are insanely beautiful (or good looking).
No.

No offense, but just... no.
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Post by Sotiris »

Goliath wrote:
Alphapanchito wrote:(a lot of transwoman are really beautiful, oftentimes more so than many ciswomen).
No.

Just no. They aren't. Not to men. They're very easy to spot, too.

Oh, really? Let us then put you to the test! :P

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Only one of these four women is a transwoman. Please identify her.
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Post by Super Aurora »

Sotiris wrote:
Goliath wrote: No.

Just no. They aren't. Not to men. They're very easy to spot, too.

Oh, really? Let us then put you to the test! :P

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Only one of these four women is a transwoman. Please identify her.
it's number 1.
<i>Please limit signatures to 100 pixels high and 500 pixels wide</i>
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Post by Sotiris »

Super Aurora wrote:It's number 1.
I'll tell you if that's right or wrong after Goliath chooses. :wink:
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Post by Alphapanchito »

Thank you so much soitiris. I was literally just about to post something like that. Oh oh! I know the answer. Pick me!

Goliath. Saying that you can spot them is just plain lies. Because the truth is, they tend look like any one of us. Whether you like it or not.
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Super Aurora
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Post by Super Aurora »

Sotiris wrote:
Super Aurora wrote:It's number 1.
I'll tell you if that's right or wrong after Goliath chooses. :wink:
You don't need to, since I know I'm right.
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Alphapanchito
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Post by Alphapanchito »

Super Aurora wrote:
Sotiris wrote: I'll tell you if that's right or wrong after Goliath chooses. :wink:
You don't need to, since I know I'm right.
Do you mind if I ask why you are so certain, Super A?
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Post by Lazario »

I'm going to guess number 2.
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Post by carolinakid »

I think #1's the transgender male also.
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Post by Super Aurora »

Alphapanchito wrote:
Do you mind if I ask why you are so certain, Super A?
I would explain as well as I know who that person is(also #1 and #2 are same person so Sotris is lying when he said only one is a transgender woman), but don't you want Goliath guess first?
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