Episode 4: A New Hope for Gay UD Threads?

[Cheshire_Cat]

Yay! The Senate voted today to repeal "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." And with that, the United States marches forward into the 21st century.

[Flanger-Hanger]

And with that, the United States marches forward into the 20st century.

Fixed.

But seriously, this has been a good year for gay rights in the US. The repeal of DADT along with the last state ban on gay adoption (I think), the successful advancements made against Prop 8, the first year a poll conducted showed more than 50% of Americans support same sex marriage and the general "It Gets Better" campaign with support from many high profile individuals. That's alot in one year.

It gives hope that full legal equality could be achieved within the next ten years, maybe even sooner.

[Lazario]

And with that, the United States marches forward into the 20th century.

Fixed.

Fixed x2

[Flanger-Hanger]

Fixed.

Fixed x2

Well that shows you how good I am at proof-reading.

[Goliath]

Only 8 Republican Senators voted in favor of repealing DADT.


Senate votes to end military ban on gays

Obama expected to sign it next week, although change wouldn't take immediate effect

WASHINGTON — In a landmark for gay rights, the Senate on Saturday voted to let gays serve openly in the military, giving President Barack Obama the chance to fulfill a campaign promise and repeal the 17-year policy known as "don't ask, don't tell."

Obama was expected to sign it next week, although the change wouldn't take immediate effect. The legislation says the president and his top military advisers must certify that lifting the ban won't hurt troops' fighting ability. After that, there's a 60-day waiting period for the military.

"It is time to close this chapter in our history," Obama said in a statement after a test vote cleared the way for final action. "It is time to recognize that sacrifice, valor and integrity are no more defined by sexual orientation than they are by race or gender, religion or creed."

The Senate vote was 65-31. The House had passed an identical version of the bill, 250-175, on Wednesday.

Repeal would mean that, for the first time in American history, gays would be openly accepted by the military and could acknowledge their sexual orientation without fear of being kicked out. [...]

Sen. John McCain, Obama's GOP rival in 2008, led the opposition. The Arizona Republican acknowledged he didn't have the votes to stop the bill and he blamed elite liberals with no military experience for pushing their social agenda on troops during wartime.

-------------------
I thought this was very telling, from the article:

"As Barry Goldwater said, 'You don't have to be straight to shoot straight,"' said Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., referring to the late GOP senator from Arizona.

Barry Goldwater was considered an ultra-conservative back in the 1960's. Every self-respecting liberal hated his guts. Goldwater was opposed to the 1964 Civil Rights Act (giving equal rights to African Americans) and he wanted to use nuclear weapons in Vietnam. And now he's being quoted by a Democrat (In Name Only) as a source of great wisdom.

Do you realize what this means? This shows just how FAR the political spectrum has moved to the right over the past couple of decades. If even Barry fucking Goldwater is now a hero of the Democrats...!

Now, I'm liberal, but to a degree
I want ev'rybody to be free
But if you think I'll let Barry Goldwater
Move in next door and marry my daughter
You must think I'm crazy
I wouldn't let him do it for all the farms in Cuba!

- Bob Dylan, 'I Shall Be Free No. 10'

[Flanger-Hanger]

I haven't posted in this thread in awhile since I get my gay news elsewhere, but I felt like ranting just about about some news this year:

Earlier this year another poll showed a majority (53%) of Americans support SSM. Both Illinois and Hawaii have legalized same-sex civil unions and Colorado is on its way to doing so (with the help of three Republican Senators), Washington now recognizes out-of-state marriages/civil unions as domestic partnerships (again with the help of some Republicans). Maryland came close to legalizing same-sex marriage, but unfortunately the bill was delayed in the house another year. In New Hampshire efforts to overturn the legalization of SSM were met by a large disaproval of the state (60 someting %).

With all of this news its clear Americans are changing thier attitudes towards SSM and civil unions. Even in a "red state" like North Carolina support has grown in recent years (now 28% vs. 21% two years ago). Sadly some states like Indiana go against this tide, but the 47% has to come from somewhere for now.

So how much longer will the side against it stand? Will the votes in future years gained by saying your against it be worthwhile? Unlikley, but it looks like Republicans still insist on having it as part of their main agenda.

Does it make sense to do so when it clearly doesn't work for all states as NH shows? Or when your own party members disagree?

Time is running out on staying against SSM in order to gain substantial votes. My guess is that recent events will be mentioned and used in the 2012 elections, even if it's clear that by 2014 it will be very unwise to have it as an overall party stance.

Thoughts?

[Goliath]

Funny you should bring back this thread just now, Flanger-Hanger. This week, we celebrated that exactly 10 years ago, on April 1st, 2001, the world's first same-sex marriage was performed in Amsterdam. (And that was no April Fool's joke!)



The polls you cite have also been mentioned in Bill Maher's show this week. His last 'new rule' was calling for Democrats to take a stance in favor of gay marriage; Maher thought it was long overdue. I'm sure you'll like it:

http://realtimewithbillmaher.blogspot.com/

[Flanger-Hanger]

Funny you should bring back this thread just now, Flanger-Hanger. This week, we celebrated that exactly 10 years ago, on April 1st, 2001, the world's first same-sex marriage was performed in Amsterdam. (And that was no April Fool's joke!)

Wow, what a weird day to have the first wedding. At least it beats friday the 13th.

The polls you cite have also been mentioned in Bill Maher's show this week. His last 'new rule' was calling for Democrats to take a stance in favor of gay marriage; Maher thought it was long overdue. I'm sure you'll like it:

http://realtimewithbillmaher.blogspot.com/

I did and I agree that they should. Obama's had a "clear as mud" stance on the issue as Rachel Maddow put it, likely in a way to secure as much votes as pissible. He said he supported civil unions and disagreed with anti-gay legislation but didn't support marriages themselves. It may seem wierd to do so but a poll in Maryland this year showed that 62% supported CU, but only 51% supported SSM. It's crazy what a change in label can do. But with the recent news I think it's safe for him to fully support SSM, especially within the 2012 election race.

As for Catholics, while Maher's % quote is true, the remaining members of that religion can still be awful as this article shows:

http://prop8trialtracker.com/2011/04/04 ... omosexual/

I feel great knowing I'm part of "the culture of death".

[Goliath]

@ Flanger-Hanger: yeah, Dutch legislation is funny like that: almost all new laws go into effect on April 1st of the year they were passed or the year following the passing. It's like they want to screw with our heads.

As for the catholics: well, I wish they worried a bit more about their pedo priests than they do over people who just want to have what they have: equal rights, including the right to marry whomever they love.

Have you seen the 'special comment' Keith Olbermann did at the time of Prop 8 in California? I'm not sure if I posted it here yet, but anyway I think it bears repeating. I thought it was beautiful. I'm not ashamed to admit I cried when I watched it, because it was so eloquently put...

<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/PIIca ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/PIIca ... 1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="390"></embed></object>

[Flanger-Hanger]

Have you seen the 'special comment' Keith Olbermann did at the time of Prop 8 in California? I'm not sure if I posted it here yet, but anyway I think it bears repeating. I thought it was beautiful. I'm not ashamed to admit I cried when I watched it, because it was so eloquently put...

I haven't seen that before, but I'm glad it was posted in this thread. It's a great emotional argument that needs to be said to those who ignore the facts that support SSM and blindly abuse children, for example, as a tactic to scare people into hating a class of persons.

And SSM is only part of the overall issue of gay rights in the US. There's a lack of federal and many state law that protects against discrimintation in areas like employment and housing and even parents of high school students will look in disgust at efforts to discourage bullying against LGBT students.

I'm glad I live in a country where no matter where I live I can at least have the legal protections from hate and be supported by all most of the community, including businesses, churches, schools and even banks.

[magicalwands]

As for the catholics: well, I wish they worried a bit more about their pedo priests than they do over people who just want to have what they have: equal rights, including the right to marry whomever they love.

It has been in on-going battle for me. I'm Catholic and it is really hard for me to get to church anymore. The other week, a speaker came in and talked about visiting some place I forget, full of children who are born handicapped and they are dropped at this place because parents do not want them. He states, "It is unfair because they were born this way." When he said that, it just boils my blood at how much ironic that statement is. Gays were born that way too. (The fact he took it from Gaga made it all the worse! )

Anyways, I can see why the church would fund anti-gay marriage laws to be passed, but it is so hypocritical they preach all the time about donating to the poor yet all this money is wasted on these marriage laws.

I have one more thing to rant about. A LOT of Catholics/Christians have assumed that being gay is wrong. I won't get into that, but I want to say this: they are taking it to the point where they are prejudice. Unfortunately, my Dad is one of them and he hates Kurt from Glee because he "talks like a girl." It's bloody depressing because nobody knows how it feels to have your parents' love for you be hinged on something the Bible says we can't be.

I'll end it on a happy note though: two of my aunts and cousins are liberal and they accept me for who I am. They tell me that religion is what I make of it. It keeps the fire inside of me going; to keep on living. I just say, "Conservatives are Slytherins and we are the Mudbloods of this world."

[Goliath]

I'll end it on a happy note though: two of my aunts and cousins are liberal and they accept me for who I am. They tell me that religion is what I make of it. It keeps the fire inside of me going; to keep on living.

That's great to hear! I'm sorry for how your dad feels. It's basically those kinds of attitudes that were partly the reason for me to leave the catholic faith. I don't want to turn this into an anti-religion thread, but I'm positive the world would be much more accepting of homosexuality if it wasn't for institutionalized religion. At least the ancient Greeks had cool gods, who were bi themselves!

[Flanger-Hanger]

Satan's on our side (along with half-truths and money) apparetly. So says the "news" organization linked in this article:

http://prop8trialtracker.com/2011/04/10 ... t-weapons/

[PrincePhillipFan]

That's great to hear! I'm sorry for how your dad feels. It's basically those kinds of attitudes that were partly the reason for me to leave the catholic faith. I don't want to turn this into an anti-religion thread, but I'm positive the world would be much more accepting of homosexuality if it wasn't for institutionalized religion. At least the ancient Greeks had cool gods, who were bi themselves!

That's one of the main reasons why I'm interested in Greek mythology, along with the petty family quarrels. I think though that's the main reason what has soured me so much when it comes to religious organizations, especially Catholics. There are a lot of them out there who are very open and accepting, but a majority of the ones I met personally were very narrowminded and told me I was going to hell.

I'm thankful though that in the area I live in for the most part seems accepting. We have a table set up for the Week of Remembrance at my college, and we have a lot of people who said they'll be attending our LGBT and Allies Prom this upcoming week.

[ajmrowland]

Well, nice to see people are having a joke about it.

[Lazario]

Satan's on our side (along with half-truths and money) apparetly. So says the "news" organization linked in this article:

http://prop8trialtracker.com/2011/04/10 ... t-weapons/

Ha.

But the belief in Satan is so outdated, it's not even funny. It's possible the majority of Americans are religious, but I'll promise you that if one person brought up Satan in a room full of people, the majority of others would get silly images in their head and not be able to take the conversation seriously.

[Flanger-Hanger]

Brazil supreme court rules 10-0 same-sex unions should be recognized:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/americas/ ... tml?hpt=T2

[milojthatch]

It has been in on-going battle for me. I'm Catholic and it is really hard for me to get to church anymore. The other week, a speaker came in and talked about visiting some place I forget, full of children who are born handicapped and they are dropped at this place because parents do not want them. He states, "It is unfair because they were born this way." When he said that, it just boils my blood at how much ironic that statement is. Gays were born that way too. (The fact he took it from Gaga made it all the worse! )

Ok, so once again, I'm commenting when I really should leave well enough alone, but what can I say, I guess I just love punishment? Ok, I'm really sick of the "born this way" excuse. It's basically the gay community saying that they have no control over their actions and no desire to better themselves from their original Earthly state, or even see a reason to. This idea has hardly just been used by Gays, it's just that lately, it seems Gays have made it their own.

I've dealt with many people over the years who basically sum up the same reason why they don't need to change or take responsibility for themselves. An argument I hear a lot from Pro-Gun groups, or people defending acts of violence is that man was born to be violent, that it's just who we are. I've head child molesters claim they were born with sexual tenancies for wanting sex with children, thieves and bank robbers say they were born with tenancies to take other people's stuff, shoppers who get into all kind of debt that say they were born with tenancies to shop to much, drunks who say they were born with tendencies to drink too much, and over and over again. Are we starting to see a pattern? You ALWAYS have a choice, always.

I'm not going to say there are not many homosexuals that are not born with such tenancies. Actually, I think many are (but not all), however, I believe such challenges were not allowed to exist so that the challenged could just submit and give in to it, and then never try to be better then they started out as. God means for His children to grow and progress and become more like Him as time passes. Using the argument that it's ok to stay in your flawed condition from birth, regardless if it's in defense of homosexuality or something else, only hurts the one making that argument in the end as they never become more then they are, and it hurts people who buy into it. Even disabled children are expected to grow within their means to become more then they were from birth, everyone is. That is THE reason why we were born on Earth to begin with, to gain a body and to learn and grown and become more then our original us, while we are tested.

Anyways, I can see why the church would fund anti-gay marriage laws to be passed, but it is so hypocritical they preach all the time about donating to the poor yet all this money is wasted on these marriage laws.

Tell me, does religion speak for God or for man? Ok, I know, in history people have mis-used religion for their own purposes, I'll give you that, but you know what? Everyone of those mis-uses is the exact same thing the Gay community is arguing for when it comes down to it. God, in His infinite wisdom, gives us commandment. Man, thinking they know more, re-writes what God said to fit social feelings of ethics and morals at the time. We've seen this story a zillion times before and it never ends well.

The fact is, we are all sinners. No one WANTS to hear they are messing up, it's called pride, which is he worst sin man can commit really as it keeps men from humbling before God and accepting responsibility for their actions. Religion exist on this Earth, when in it's purest form, to let us know when we mess up and how to fix said messes. If religion is doing it's job right, most of it's message is going to be stuff we don't want to hear, becuase it means we have to take responsibility and grown up and work hard to better ourselves. But, as men do, they try to change the message to not sound so brash, pat themselves on the back for not doing a job well done, and keep messing up. It takes a brave man to say, "NO! Enough! Time to change and get back on track here." As history shows us, those are the men who normally end up silenced. But their silence doesn't make their message any less true.

People want the easy way out and feel they know more then God, the Gay issue is just the latest chapter in that bigger fight.

I have one more thing to rant about. A LOT of Catholics/Christians have assumed that being gay is wrong. I won't get into that, but I want to say this: they are taking it to the point where they are prejudice.

And so is murder, and adultery, and taking the Lord's name in vain, yet people do all of the above, so does that mean none of it is wrong becuase so many people find joy in these things? Tell me, if a man finds joy in killing another man, would it not be wrong to take that joy away from him? See where this logic falls off the tracks yet? You confuse assuming with knowing. Through time, God has made it known the reality of this topic, it's just many don't want to listen. Doesn't make it any less true. But again, it's how you take it. If you take it like "I may have these feelings, but I can over come them, and in the proses, become a better human being," your on your way to greater things then this life can give. Sadly, most rather exist in the mist and call themselves wise for doing so.

As for the prejudice bit, so is anyone who disagrees with you prejudice? If that is the case, the word has no meaning anymore, seriously. To be fair, it's not just Gays who use this word in this way, but, that doesn't make it any more wrong. Someone can disagree with you and still have all the love and respect in the World for you. It's makes me sad when someone who is Gay stands there after I may defend them, and because I don't see eye-to-eye with them, labels me a bigot. How easy is it to call a man a bigot, but how much harder is it to actually understand him? I would think that a group of people people who are so concerned with their feelings would realize that others have them too, but maybe I'm asking too much?

I do agree that there are many who really would do harm to gays if they could, or see them as something other then human, and these people are wrong for such feelings or actions. But please don't be prejudice yourself in how you interact with people who see it as a sin to be over come. I may disagree with you, but I still see you as a child of God, and within my own human frailty, try to show some kind of respect. But, I admit, as most tests in life are, it gets harder to show respect all the time when your being attacked with venom. So please, do me a favor and help me by not making it so hard to be nice to you. We are all just trying to do what we understand to be better people, you'd do well to realize that and show more understanding for that reality. Christians have feelings too.

Ok, you can keep talking, I'm done for now and getting off my soap box.

[Elladorine]

I don't see how it's fair to compare homosexual tendencies to murder.

[SpringHeelJack]

Ugh, milo, I know the feeling. Every time I talk to a born-again Christian they're all like I WAS BORN INTO JESUS and I'm like STOP USING THAT AS AN EXCUSE. What a load.