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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:36 pm 
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Disney's Divinity wrote:
DisneyFan09 wrote:
"The Emperor's New Groove" is fun, enjoyable and certainly something unique in Disney animation. It's the closest Disney have made a Warner Bros cartoon and a pure comedy. However, I was looking forward to "Kingdom of the Sun" and it was a wasted opportunity to make an Incan epic. Also the soundtrack was quite wasted, since unfortunately the score had no Andean music.

I agree with this. :up: TENG is unique and enjoyable, but at the same time Yzma/Kuzko are the only memorable parts of the film.

About Yzma though, I wonder if she'd have ended up memorable in Kingdom of the Sun or not if the movie had done as badly as Atlantis and TP. Don't get me wrong, Eartha Kitt would've been fantastic either way, but part of the reason Yzma works so well is that she's a riff on all of Disney's previous villainesses, which I'm not sure would've been the case in KotS.


Good point, I never thought of how different Yzma would be in Kingdom of the Sun. She seems to retain a bit of humor in the song (at least compared to the more brooding villainesses before her like the Queen, Lady Tremaine, etc.) but she might not have been as enjoyable.

I also wonder if Kingdom of the Sun would have prolonged the Disney Renaissance or not. After the duds of Pocahontas, Hunchback, and Hercules, Disney was slowly rising back up with Mulan and Tarzan, until of course TENG and Atlantis threw them right back down. Kingdom of the Sun was supposed to be akin to The Lion King, so perhaps it would have been successful and kept the Disney Renaissance afloat for at least another year.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:31 pm 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
Disney's Divinity wrote:
DisneyFan09 wrote:
"The Emperor's New Groove" is fun, enjoyable and certainly something unique in Disney animation. It's the closest Disney have made a Warner Bros cartoon and a pure comedy. However, I was looking forward to "Kingdom of the Sun" and it was a wasted opportunity to make an Incan epic. Also the soundtrack was quite wasted, since unfortunately the score had no Andean music.

I agree with this. :up: TENG is unique and enjoyable, but at the same time Yzma/Kuzko are the only memorable parts of the film.

About Yzma though, I wonder if she'd have ended up memorable in Kingdom of the Sun or not if the movie had done as badly as Atlantis and TP. Don't get me wrong, Eartha Kitt would've been fantastic either way, but part of the reason Yzma works so well is that she's a riff on all of Disney's previous villainesses, which I'm not sure would've been the case in KotS.


Good point, I never thought of how different Yzma would be in Kingdom of the Sun. She seems to retain a bit of humor in the song (at least compared to the more brooding villainesses before her like the Queen, Lady Tremaine, etc.) but she might not have been as enjoyable.

I also wonder if Kingdom of the Sun would have prolonged the Disney Renaissance or not. After the duds of Pocahontas, Hunchback, and Hercules, Disney was slowly rising back up with Mulan and Tarzan, until of course TENG and Atlantis threw them right back down. Kingdom of the Sun was supposed to be akin to The Lion King, so perhaps it would have been successful and kept the Disney Renaissance afloat for at least another year.


Reading the plot of the Kingdom Of the Sun, it was really a mess and I think people would actually be even more turn off by Disney because they would have found it really cliche and typical. Remember at this point the populace was getting weary of the Disney formula which lead to the Shrek like comedies of the 2000's.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:33 am 
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jazzflower92 wrote:
Reading the plot of the Kingdom Of the Sun, it was really a mess and I think people would actually be even more turn off by Disney because they would have found it really cliche and typical. Remember at this point the populace was getting weary of the Disney formula which lead to the Shrek like comedies of the 2000's.

Fair enough, but remember that "TENG" wasn't a box office hit anyway. "Shrek" was a breath of fresh air to the audience in 2001, though I personally consider "TENG" to be superior. Even "Antz" is a superior film to "Shrek".

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I enjoy Gothel as the villain but I would have liked her to be more complex. She could have been one of the best and most interesting antagonists. But she just ends up as a decent villain. She is basically Yzma from Kingdom of the Sun.

No offense, but really? How so?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:37 am 
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unprincess wrote:
I love Oliver and Company so I always wondered what Lion King would have been like if George Scribner had stayed as director. I have a feeling the more mythological/spiritual elements would have been less prominent in his version.

I never posted a response to this, because I have no idea about George Scribner directing TLK...was he director earrrrrly on, when it was King of the Jungle?

Semaj wrote:
Chris Sanders' American Dog became Chris William's Bolt. When the "Art of" book came out, all evidence of the former film was erased.

Yes!!! I still find myself looking up his designs for the radioactive bunny and pirate cat. I love those designs so much. I know that he wound up using the pirate cat in some comics.

Jay wrote:
If Aladdin came out today Jasmine would probably get a show stopping number singing about being generous or something in the middle of the market place and everyone would join along.

I think we can all agree that Aladdin would be so different if it had come out today. I was listening to "A Whole New World" in the car yesterday, and I was thinking that the voice cast would probably be different. But you have a point (haha, get it?!) about the swords being in the film and people being threatened by them.

JeanGreyForever wrote:
Thank God the Broadway musical doesn't have anything like that.

I wasn't even thinking that there is a Broadway Aladdin musical (but I just woke up...!) In the Broadway show, how does swordplay take a part in the story? How violent/less violent is the Broadway show (Where they cut off your ear if they don't like your face {I can't imagine that that lyric is in the Broadway show}, or what Jay said, trying to cut Jasmine's hand in the marketplace})??

Jay wrote:
I enjoy Gothel as the villain but I would have liked her to be more complex. She could have been one of the best and most interesting antagonists. But she just ends up as a decent villain.

I think that one thing that makes Gothel so great (she's been one of my favorite villains since the movie came out) as a villain is that she's a mother figure. Come on, show of hands, how many of us have had issues with our mother figures, especially in adolescence/early adulthood??! :wave: Frollo, too, fits into this evil parent-figure category, too (but I guess one could say that Gothel kidnapped Rapunzel because she wanted her [her hair, but still], whereas Frollo was pretty much forced to keep Quasimodo). Remember the whole "Does Gothel really care for Rapunzel? How much does Gothel really care for Rapunzel?" commentary here?! That's why I think that she's such an intersting villain.

JeanGreyForever wrote:
I think giving Flynn an animal sidekick would automatically make him less self-centered, which would slightly hamper his character progression

Ohhhh...that makes sense!

JeanGreyForever wrote:
Kuzco can be a bit too full of himself at times which makes it difficult to sympathize with. I'm glad to know though that I'm not the only one who found Pacha boring. His scenes never really got my attention.

I like Pacha...I think that he totally balances out Kuzco; ordinarily, the two would never be friends, for obvious reasons, but I think that Pacha's mellowness/thoughtfulness/responsibility balances out Kuzco's energy/selfishness/spontaneity.

DisneyFan09 wrote:
First of all I want to praise you for an excellent thread, blackcauldron85. It's not unusual that animated films change directors, so therefore praise to you to start your own discussion about it.

:oops: Aww, shucks! :goofy: Thank you so much! I'm so glad that people are having a great discussion here!!

DisneyFan09 wrote:
Also the soundtrack was quite wasted, since unfortunately the score had no Andean music.

I've honestly never even bought the soundtrack for TENG, but I know that some of the non-used songs came out. I've seen The Sweatbox, but not owning the soundtrack: Did all of Sting's music for KotS/KitS have a more "Incan" flavor?? I think that Sting's music, in general, has a more...diverse flavor, if you will. Lots of global influences in his music. "My Funny Friend and Me" is pretty much my least favorite Disney pop song (that and "Where the Dream Takes You"), so I would probably like his un-used music for TENG more, I'm sure.

DisneyFan09 wrote:
And let's not forget our friend "Brave". Though it's not Pixar's first directorial change, it's certainly the most publical one. Who wonders how "Brave" would've been if Brenda had been the director all along. Probably better, I suppose.

I think that there would be more screentime between Merida & Elinor... I mean, just the other day in the Brenda Chapman thread, it was posted that instead of Merida talking with Angus & Elinor talking with Fergus, Merida & Elinor would have had more screentime (regarding their disagreement). So, that's just one example of how the film would be changed.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:49 am 
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Quote:
I've honestly never even bought the soundtrack for TENG, but I know that some of the non-used songs came out. I've seen The Sweatbox, but not owning the soundtrack: Did all of Sting's music for KotS/KitS have a more "Incan" flavor?? I think that Sting's music, in general, has a more...diverse flavor, if you will. Lots of global influences in his music. "My Funny Friend and Me" is pretty much my least favorite Disney pop song (that and "Where the Dream Takes You"), so I would probably like his un-used music for TENG more, I'm sure.

I know one of his songs (probably the opening song) had Andean flavor after seeing "The Sweatbox", but not the others. I was talking about the actual score as well.

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I think that there would be more screentime between Merida & Elinor... I mean, just the other day in the Brenda Chapman thread, it was posted that instead of Merida talking with Angus & Elinor talking with Fergus, Merida & Elinor would have had more screentime (regarding their disagreement). So, that's just one example of how the film would be changed.

Due to my research, it seems as the original story was going to be more complicated, but got eventually simplified. But if it got simplified to a point where it became too simplistic and not particularly consistent, then perhaps Chapman should've stayed the director all along.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:50 am 
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This is a different example:

When The Rescuers began production, Wolfgang Reitherman signed John Lounsbery on as a co-director. Having directed "Winnie the Pooh and Tigger Too!", Lounsbery was selected to someday succeed Reitherman as the then-head of Disney animation.

But Lounsbery died suddenly in 1976. Art Stevens, who was once a Lounsbery assistant and was already working on The Rescuers as a character animator was quickly promoted to co-director. He then became the co-producer-director of The Fox and the Hound.

Thru all of this, it's hard to discern exactly how it affected the outcome of The Rescuers, since it was largely under Reitherman's supervision.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:28 pm 
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blackcauldron85 wrote:
unprincess wrote:
I love Oliver and Company so I always wondered what Lion King would have been like if George Scribner had stayed as director. I have a feeling the more mythological/spiritual elements would have been less prominent in his version.

I never posted a response to this, because I have no idea about George Scribner directing TLK...was he director earrrrrly on, when it was King of the Jungle?



Im not sure if it was during when it was still called KOTJ but he was the first director on the film, so I assume it was. He left b/c he didnt like that they were going to make it a musical, he wanted something more realistic.

http://lionking.wikia.com/wiki/George_Scribner

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:35 pm 
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The project I would have liked to see directed by someone different would have been "The Black Cauldron"....what is up with this movie? It was in production hell for years, and from what I understand and have read...it was brought to the studio in the early 70's by either Frank or Ollie (cant remember exactly), and had a much different story layout than what eventually came out. The voice cast was at one time inclusion of both Hayley Mills and Kurt Russell I believe. Either way, it is sad because, I think story is what hurts it the most...the animation isn't really that bad, and the score is magnificent. The flow of the film is just too "jumpy" for me and there are many plotholes and under developed characters.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:44 pm 
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justcuttinhair wrote:
The project I would have liked to see directed by someone different would have been "The Black Cauldron"....what is up with this movie? It was in production hell for years, and from what I understand and have read...it was brought to the studio in the early 70's by either Frank or Ollie (cant remember exactly), and had a much different story layout than what eventually came out. The voice cast was at one time inclusion of both Hayley Mills and Kurt Russell I believe. Either way, it is sad because, I think story is what hurts it the most...the animation isn't really that bad, and the score is magnificent. The flow of the film is just too "jumpy" for me and there are many plotholes and under developed characters.


It's kinda awkward that Hayley Mills was promoted as the voice of Eilonwy on a 1981 episode of the anthology series. Like with many others, it was likely behind-the-scenes problems that drove her away.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:34 pm 
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Sorry for bumping this thread, but I wanted to give a reply.

An candidate to this topic is Tarzan. Though of course this can be labeled as irrelevant, due to it's oblivion whether it had a different director or not (it's cited that Kevin Lima was the one who was given the idea from the get-go), it's still originally had a different treatment. Tab Murphy had initially written a outline that was quite faithful to Burroughs's original novel, where it even took place in England. Though it's cited in several books that the crew deliberately wanted to tone down the most harrowing moments, to sanitize it in true Disney mold, I'm still intrigued by the mere fact that Murphy dared to write a treatment that was close to it's Burroughs' version. Who knows how that idea would've been like. And I guess it must have been different than the original outline that was included in the Tarzan Collector's Edition DVD.

Due to Disney expanding their horizons in the 90's, at least dramatically, artistically and maturity (though their actual premises and outlines being another case :P), I wouldn't mind to see a darker and more harrowing depiction of Tarzan in the 90's (though I've cited this priorly several years ago). Despite the final version does include quite bits of harrowing moments of demises and controversy, it's still overall a light-hearted and peppy movie, despite that it's basically the one who's most even in tone, incorporating various genres in the same way that the early Renaissance films did (though personally I was never fond of some of the most blatant, juvenile comedy in the movie, which unfortunately was executed quite badly, in my opinion).


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:23 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Sorry for bumping this thread, but I wanted to give a reply.

An candidate to this topic is Tarzan. Though of course this can be labeled as irrelevant, due to it's oblivion whether it had a different director or not (it's cited that Kevin Lima was the one who was given the idea from the get-go), it's still originally had a different treatment. Tab Murphy had initially written a outline that was quite faithful to Burroughs's original novel, where it even took place in England. Though it's cited in several books that the crew deliberately wanted to tone down the most harrowing moments, to sanitize it in true Disney mold, I'm still intrigued by the mere fact that Murphy dared to write a treatment that was close to it's Burroughs' version. Who knows how that idea would've been like. And I guess it must have been different than the original outline that was included in the Tarzan Collector's Edition DVD.

Due to Disney expanding their horizons in the 90's, at least dramatically, artistically and maturity (though their actual premises and outlines being another case :P), I wouldn't mind to see a darker and more harrowing depiction of Tarzan in the 90's (though I've cited this priorly several years ago). Despite the final version does include quite bits of harrowing moments of demises and controversy, it's still overall a light-hearted and peppy movie, despite that it's basically the one who's most even in tone, incorporating various genres in the same way that the early Renaissance films did (though personally I was never fond of some of the most blatant, juvenile comedy in the movie, which unfortunately was executed quite badly, in my opinion).

That's interesting that Disney nearly did a more faithful adaptation of the film. I know that Burroughs fans aren't really big on the Disney version because of how different it is. I am sort of interested now in what this version might have looked like even though the Tarzan we have is one of my favorite Disney movies of all time. I wonder if in this older version, the time period would have been in the Edwardian era like the books since the final version has elements from both the late Victorian and Edwardian eras. I agree that in the final version the humor does feel out of place, basically whenever Terk and Tantor are on screen. Then again, The Lion King suffers from the same imo and it's still regarded as the crown jewel of Disney and I have to admit that I actually enjoy Trashin' the Camp, which I know is a very unpopular opinion.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:19 am 
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I'm most curious about if Hunchback was ever thought to have different directors and maybe an outcome more similar to the book. It's not one of my favorite Disney films, but i think if you cut the childish comedy and uneven tone you'd get rid of the big flaws of the film (the way the musical did it is probably how I like it most, tbh, even if some characters changed here and there).

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:17 am 
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JeanGreyForever wrote:
That's interesting that Disney nearly did a more faithful adaptation of the film. I know that Burroughs fans aren't really big on the Disney version because of how different it is.

Sorry to nitpick, but where's your source for that? I guess it must be true, due to obvious reasons (which is the true for every Disney adaptation), but were there so many naysayers about Tarzan?

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I agree that in the final version the humor does feel out of place, basically whenever Terk and Tantor are on screen.

I'm one of the minorities who could live through Terk and actually found her quite tolerable. Though I completely understand why people found her loud and jarring. Tantor (as an adult) was way more annoying and most of the slapstick comedy follows the same mode. At least some of the situational comedy (Kala's encountering with baby Tarzan, Tarzan and Jane's first meeting, Tarzan luring Clayton) is executed better, but the blatant comedy (the elephant dare-trick, the baboons, Professor Porter and such) is just off-putting.

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Then again, The Lion King suffers from the same imo and it's still regarded as the crown jewel of Disney

True, but there are some naysayers regarding Timon and Pumbaa. They're not as good as I remember, yet I've never found them off-putting.

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and I have to admit that I actually enjoy Trashin' the Camp, which I know is a very unpopular opinion.

I have no problem with Trashin' the Camp either. Though I understand why people have problems with it, but I thought it was executed well.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:40 pm 
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For all the people who are interested in Glen Keane's version of Rapunzel, I've found more information on it, mainly information on Bastion and Xavier. Some really interesting stuff!
http://tangledbea.tumblr.com/post/14731 ... blacksmith
http://tangledbea.tumblr.com/post/16290 ... stion-like

Also here's some animation tests for Rapunzel, Gothel, and Grifol which I don't think I've posted before. Rapunzel's voiced by Natalie Portman in these, and I much prefer her voice as Rapunzel compared to Mandy Moore's (even though I'm a Mandy Moore fan).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb1VHpPBCMU
http://artoftangled.tumblr.com/post/340 ... m-graphite
http://artoftangled.tumblr.com/post/340 ... el-jin-kim
https://vimeo.com/70750561


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:42 pm 
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Thanks for posting all that, it's awesome! I don't like tinkerer and inventor stuff (except I liked it in Belle in Beauty and the Beast) but it's cool. I miss Rapunzel's better sleeves!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:06 pm 
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Disney Duster wrote:
Thanks for posting all that, it's awesome! I don't like tinkerer and inventor stuff (except I liked it in Belle in Beauty and the Beast) but it's cool. I miss Rapunzel's better sleeves!

It's interesting how many times Disney has used it (or tried to use it) now. Tinker Bell in the Disney Fairies movies, Bastion in Rapunzel, Hiro in Big Hero 6, Mowgli in the live-action Jungle Book, and Belle in the live-action BATB. Personally, I only think it worked for Hiro and Mowgli. Tinker Bell's original character is nothing like the one in the Fairies movies, and whether you go with Disney's original version or the book version, Tinker Bell liked lovely and beautiful things and would never debase herself by tinkering around with objects. And I've made my views clear on Disney's attempts to make Belle more progressive in BATB. It made sense for Hiro considering he is a science buff, and I also appreciated Mowgli with this skill since as a human, he would have ingenuity and skills that other animals wouldn't have. Since the book and movie is all about how the other animals either fear him for being man or desire for him to teach them the ways of man, it makes sense that he has a sense of otherness from his inventing skills.

So when I first read this, I thought that Bastion being a tinkerer was repetitive, but I guess he really would have been the first, except for Tinker Bell, and I don't count low-grade Disney sequels/prequels.

I really liked how they originally planned to reveal Rapunzel as the lost princess. It's interesting how much sterner the character seemed, between her wielding a crossbow (instead of a frying pan) and wearing chainmail like a warrior. I'm not sure how much of a resemblance she actually would have to her mother, considering their faces look different to me, not to mention the hair color, but I find it more realistic than her having flashbacks to being born.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:08 am 
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What you said about Hiro and Mowgli does make sense. I just liked it on Belle, it isn't really very fitting for her, I just liked what she did.

You do have a point that Rapunzel wearing the chainmail and crown makes more sense than her remembering when she was a baby. But I do actually prefer what they did in the final movie. Sure, it makes less sense, but I prefer it.

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