Frozen: Part V

[Sotiris]

I found a couple of new animation tests.

• Anna CG animation test by Russ Edmonds.

• Olaf pencil test by Brian Ferguson.

[Sotiris]

In a new interview, Disney effects animator Dan Lund revealed that Frozen was considered the B movie at the studio at the time of its development with Big Hero 6 being pushed more because it was a boy-oriented, Marvel superhero film (which is reminiscent of The Lion King / Pocahontas situation). He also confirmed that Frozen got revived (and converted into CG) because of Tangled's success.

Dan Lund: A lot of people involved in [Frozen] were 2D people. So, we all had been gone or shifted careers or shifted focus or even just status on the career ladder and when we got into Frozen, it felt like it was all of these people who maybe were going to have their last shot. And if we were going to go out, we were going to go out doing a balls to the wall, unapologetic Disney movie. Now that the film is so successful, it's hard to imagine that while we were making it people thought that we were going to fail. But when we were making it, it probably felt the most like being a filmmaker than I've ever felt at Disney because it was just a bunch of people that believed in it when no one else did. Everybody was really into Big Hero 6. That was going to be the hit. It was the hip, boy-oriented movie with the target demographic. When we were working on Frozen, it was like you didn't talk about the music, and you didn't mention the word magic and you sure didn't mention sisters and you just felt like we had to really earn the right to sell it.

Q: It wasn't that long after Disney announced "we're not doing princess movies anymore".

Dan Lund: Absolutely. I remember that. Thank God, Tangled came out. Actually, Frozen was in production then but got cancelled. So, we watched it die and we all left. Then a few years later, Tangled came out and did a ton of business and they said "whatever happened to that Frozen thing? Make it CG and make it a musical".

Source: http://endcredits.podbean.com/e/danlund/

[Disney's Divinity]

I'm just glad BH6 was the Pocahontas in this scenario, otherwise musicals, fairy tales, and female protagonists would have been extinguished entirely at Disney, just like hand-drawn animation.

Lund's quotes about Tangled's hestitance to be a musical (in the Tangled thread) and Frozen being resurrected as a 3D musical feature after Tangled's success only confirm what most of us already knew/suspected.

[jazzflower92]

I'm just glad BH6 was the Pocahontas in this scenario, otherwise musicals, fairy tales, and female protagonists would have been extinguished entirely at Disney, just like hand-drawn animation.

Lund's quotes about Tangled's hestitance to be a musical (in the Tangled thread) and Frozen being resurrected as a 3D musical feature after Tangled's success only confirm what most of us already knew/suspected.

Although one could say that BH6, at least did better than Pocahontas in being critically received by the public.

[DisneyEra]

I'm just glad BH6 was the Pocahontas in this scenario, otherwise musicals, fairy tales, and female protagonists would have been extinguished entirely at Disney, just like hand-drawn animation.

Lund's quotes about Tangled's hestitance to be a musical (in the Tangled thread) and Frozen being resurrected as a 3D musical feature after Tangled's success only confirm what most of us already knew/suspected.

Although one could say that BH6, at least did better than Pocahontas in being critically received by the public.

It also made more $$$ worldwide than its competition in 2014, HttyD 2 & The Lego Movie "both of which are getting sequels in 2018".

[Disney's Divinity]

Yeah, and it also made only half of Frozen's intake. Just like Pocahontas made only half of The Lion King's intake. The comparison fits, the end.

[jazzflower92]

Yeah, and it also made only half of Frozen's intake. Just like Pocahontas made only half of The Lion King's intake. The comparison fits, the end.

I think BH6 will be looked on more fondly in years than Pocahontas has.

[Disney's Divinity]

That has more to do with Pocahontas' subject matter and Disney's desire to erase the film from their history than it does BH6 being a better movie (and it isn't, imo). Either way, the point still remains they both did half the gross of the film before them, and neither were as popular as the film they followed.

[DisneyEra]

That has more to do with Pocahontas' subject matter and Disney's desire to erase the film from their history than it does BH6 being a better movie (and it isn't, imo). Either way, the point still remains they both did half the gross of the film before them, and neither were as popular as the film they followed.

And that was the down fall of the Renaissance, trying to top The Lion King. I hope WDAS doesn't make that same mistake again post Frozen.

[DisneyFan09]

It's funny to see how the history keeps repeating itself. It seems like a 20-year gap synergy by these current and past events. There's twenty years between "The Black Cauldron" and "Chicken Little" and both were seen as disastrous duds (despite how you look at it). Four years later, the fairy tale musical is reinvogorated again (though unfortunately "TPATF" wasn't as influential as "Mermaid") and the studio would have one dud among the great successes. And the huge blockbuster, while not being an animalistic movie this time, was seen as the dud.

There's no denial that "Frozen" was shaped by "Tangled" in every single way. If it was better for it, it's another case, but at least both films appealed to the mass demographic. It's funny how the studio tries to deny it, when it's so overtly obvious. To add fuel to the fire, who knows how "Frozen" would've turned out if "TPATF" was the big hit.

And wasn't the no-Princess film just a statement that was blown out of porportion? Well, if the comment was actually true, it would be ironic and contradicting, due to the increasing success of the Princess franchise. It would be relevant in "TPATF" case, but "Tangled" turned it around. From a commercial standpoint, it would be stupid to abandon Princess-movies due to the franchise.

Either way, while "Big Hero 6" is this eras "Pocahontas" at least commercially, it isn't hampered by all the components which worked against "Pocahontas". So I don't think that it would be stuck with the same stigma. I've defended "Pocahontas" priorly on this board and while I love the film, it's easy to see why it didn't resonate with the same crowd as it's predecessors did. "Hunchback" did inferior business. And while I love that film equally and has it's lovers, there's no secret that it created more controversy. So I wonder which film will be the so-called next "Hunchback". "Zootopia", maybe?

[Disney's Divinity]

To add fuel to the fire, who knows how "Frozen" would've turned out if "TPATF" was the big hit.

Good point. TP&TF was a no-win situation: either we save hand-drawn animation and simultaneously propel Randy Newman to Disney regular or we lose hand-drawn animation and are spared Randy Newman croaking out songs for Frozen, Giants, and/or Moana. I'm really torn on which is the worse alternative.

But it still confounds me that they cite Tangled as the turn-around and yet Alan Menken was also booted out the door despite the fact that he helped make the Disney musical popular again (all while being constrained by Disney execs and Tangled's directors who were less confident in musical numbers/fairy tales after TP&TF). If the Lopezes or Newman had debuted at Disney with Tangled, they would've been celebrated after the move was a financial success.

[DisneyFan09]

Thanks for the praise. You have to know that all of my points are good Kidding

I'm glad Newman wasn't offered new Disney project, despite that I liked his work for "TPATF". And yeah, the Lopezes would've been heralded if they were behind the music of "Tangled", which would've made "Tangled" more fulfilled in Lasseter's eye.

[blackcauldron85]

Casting roles for the theme park musical:

http://www.stitchkingdom.com/disney-cal ... cal-82013/

[disneyprincess11]

Really loved that Olaf test Reminded me of the 90s sidekicks! I got to go offline now, but I'll talk later

[Lady Cluck]

People are still trying to force Renaissance comparisons to today's crop of films? It's a new era. Love it and live it!

Pocahontas wasn't just a misstep due to comparisons to The Lion King. Once you reach a milestone once in a generation peak like that you're not automatically expected to match or surpass it every time

The Pocahontas = flop meme is definitely exaggerated today, but Big Hero 6 was far more successful critically and commercially, especially factoring in worldwide numbers (even adjusted for ticket price inflation).

[Disney's Divinity]

People are still trying to force Renaissance comparisons to today's crop of films?

Nope. But the difference between Frozen and BH6 financially speaking is very similar to the difference between TLK and Pocahontas. BH6 isn't a flop ofc, but neither was Pocahontas. That has nothing to do with the comparison though. All it means is that Disney will most likely not care about BH6 in 20 years, just like we see with Pocahontas now. Probably moreso since Pocahontas at least hangs on due to the DP franchise.

I'd say the same will be the case for TP&TF, Bolt, WIR, and probably Zootopia, too. Actually, thinking about the future for these films is something I hadn't considered much before.

[Prince Edward]

Movies like Frozen and Tangled, and I also believe The Princess and the Frog, will be remembered in 20 years because they are what people associate with Disney: Fairytales, princesses, musicals. Wreck-It-Ralph, Big Hero 6 will not be remembered. They felt very "meh" to me. Nothing classic about them to stand the test of time. Movies like Chicken Little (thank the gods!), Meet the Robinsons, Bolt are already forgotten. The fairytales movies will partly be remembered in 20 years because Disney themself do everything they can to make people not forget about them.

I think Pocahontas had a much bigger impact on popular culture back in 1995 than what Big Hero 6 have had these days. There was a lot fewer animated movies released back then, so it was easier for Pocahontas to be noted. The movie's soundtrack had great sucess (topped the Billboard 200 album chart in the US, as the Frozen soundtrack also did) and "everyone" have heard Colors of the Wind, just like Let It Go from Frozen had a huge impact now lately (both songs awarded the Academy Award). Today, people think of Disney's Pocahontas when they hear about Pocahontas. Big Hero 6 have had no such impact on popular culture, it's just "another movie" among countless new animated movies released yearly.

I think Pocahontas would have been viewed more successfull had it not been the first Disney Animation Studios movie to be released after The Lion King. The Lion King came after successfull movies like The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast and Aladdin, and became a huge deal in popular culture. Just as I think Frozen benefited from having a successfull movie like Tangled being released prior to it's release. Compared to the success of The Lion King, Pocahontas have little chance.

Pocahontas were also a highly stylized movie and more adult in it themes. The art and music are very beautiful, and this movie reminds me a bit of Sleeping Beauty - Disney was not happy about Sleeping Beauty's box office, but perhaps Pocahontas will be considered a classic years from now just like Sleeping Beauty.

The tone in Pocahontas are different from the previous animated Disney films. No talking animals, and themes like racism. No "funny" songs, but serious songs with a lot of historical facts in it's lyrics. Had Pocahontas been more light and for the kiddies, I think it would have been viewed differently by Disney today.

And the last factor one have to think about when it comes to the question "Will a Disney movie be popular and remembered years from now?": Disney itself. Disney have done nearly nothing to make people remember Pocahontas. The only thing is "Colors of the Wind" being featured on various Disney collection CDs and Pocahontas being a part of that horrid "Disney Princess" franchise. Though it's clear to see that she is only there to make it seem like less of a white princess club. She is featured on near to nothing of the Disney Princess merchandise. Disney have a huge influence on what Disney movies are to be remembered by generations by decideing what movies to continue to promote after release and what movies to condemn to oblivion (Hunchback, Hercules... Search for these movie on Disney Store and you'll find NOTHING to buy!).

Pocahontas was the last of the 90's movies (if one does not take 1999's Tarzan into consideration) to have a big impact on popular culture as I see it. Although I love The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Hercules and Mulan, none of them did as well at the box office as the previous 90's movies and none of them won any Academy Awards. Their soundtracks (although they feature great songs and music - especially Hunchback) had no breakout songs that made any impact and are not as remembered today as the songs from Mermaid, Beauty, Aladdin, Lion King, Pocahontas.

[Disney's Divinity]

I think Pocahontas had a much bigger impact on popular culture back in 1995 than what Big Hero 6 have had these days. There was a lot fewer animated movies released back then, so it was easier for Pocahontas to be noted.

That’s a good point. I think there are so many animated films being released these days that many of those that don’t stand out disappear into the ether.

[ce1ticmoon]

Animated films have definitely reached a saturation point today. When Pocahontas was released back in 1995, basically it was just WDFA releasing a film a year. You had the occasional Don Bluth film, and obviously Pixar came onto the scene with Toy Story that year, but they wouldn't become a regular presence until the 2000s. You'd see other animated films released from time to time, but you're right, it was nothing like today. Today, we have WDAS, Pixar, DreamWorks, SPA, Blue Sky, and Illumination basically releasing a film per year (sometimes more), with other smaller studios like LAIKA, Reel FX, and Animal Logic gaining a presence. It was definitely easier for Disney to make an impression back then.

As for the cultural impact of BH6 versus Pocahontas, though, I'm not really sure it's all too different. Sure, Pocahontas had a massive radio hit and spawned a multi-platinum soundtrack album, but that's about the only edge I can see. Today, it isn't remembered much outside of Disney fans and nostalgic 90s kids, and the character's occasional appearance in the Disney Princess line. Kids were pretty into BH6 from what I saw (anecdotal evidence, I know), and its box office performance attests to its popularity (the box office was overshadowed by the massive success of Frozen, but BH6 still gave WDAS one of their best performing hits). And if Disney decides to sequelize BH6, I'm pretty sure it will stay in public consciousness for some time. To be honest, I was pretty disappointed in BH6 (I mean, it was decent and entertaining, but pretty forgettable), but I'm open to the idea of a sequel. The superhero premise pretty much gives it endless potential.

[Disney's Divinity]

I think BH6 and Pocahontas were both moderate hits and, true, another twenty years from now and Pocahontas will be forgotten completely (I assume they'll drop her from the DP line, too, once they have a few more female characters of color to add).

But regardless I think Pocahontas is definitely better-remembered at this point than BH6 will be at the same age, mostly for advantages BH6 didn't have (soundtrack, DP line, time of release). I'm not even that big of a Pocahontas fan--although I definitely prefer it to BH6, which I found very lacking even in comparison to the other Lasseter films--but I think it's undeniable BH6 will be fodder in 20 years; I doubt it'll still be getting sequels or merchandise/regular re-releases at that point... Or I hope not, anyway.