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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:47 am 
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Sotiris wrote:
In the context of the sequel, it's not Pocahontas who betrays Smith but it's Smith who appears to be a selfish jerk who does not care enough about her. I know the result is the same (shattering the theme of ever-lasting love of the original) but I just wanted to point this out.


Exactly how was he a selfish jerk who didnt' care enough about her?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:17 am 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Exactly how was he a selfish jerk who didn't' care enough about her?


We only talking about the sequel, of course.

When Smith and Pocahontas finally meet she asks him: "All this time, why didn't you ever write to me?" to which he responds "I wanted to. I must have written thousands of letters" ~insert awkward facial expression~. It looked like a flimsy excuse someone gives you when they haven't contacted you in a long time.

Also, he didn't support her when she wanted to go face the king and help her people. It was Rolfe who insisted she shouldn't turn her back on her people.

Also, in the end when they make him a captain he tells her "they've given me a ship! It's been MY dream...errr...ours! ~insert awkward facial expression ~ This was an indication he was thinking only about himself and what he wanted.

He then continued telling her he wants to travel the world. When she told him that she has found where she belonged and she wants to go back to her tribe, he told her "I hope you find happiness". He didn't tell her he would be willing to go back with her nor did he try to convince her to stay with him. He just wanted to go after his dream and travel the world. He just didn't seem to care about her all that much.

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Last edited by Sotiris on Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:56 am 
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Sotiris wrote:
DisneyFan09 wrote:
Exactly how was he a selfish jerk who didn't' care enough about her?


We only talking about the sequel, of course.

When Smith and Pocahontas finally meet she asks him: "All this time, why didn't you ever write to me?" to which he responds "I wanted to. I must have written thousands of letters" ~insert awkward facial expression~. It looked like a flimsy excuse someone give you when they haven't contacted you in a long time.

Also, he didn't support her when she wanted to go face the king and help her people. It was Rolfe who insisted she shouldn't turn her back on her people.

Also, in the end when they make him a captain he tells her "they've given me a ship! It's been MY dream...errr...ours! ~insert awkward facial expression ~ This was an indication he was thinking only about himself and what he wanted.

He then continued telling her he wants to travel the world. When she told him that she has found where she belonged and she wants to go back to her tribe, he told her "I hope you find happiness". He didn't tell her he would be willing to go back with her nor did he try to convince her to stay with him. He just wanted to go after his dream and travel the world. He just didn't seem to care about her all that much.


You've right. Pardon me for asking. It's been a long time since I saw the sequel, so I don't remember every detail.

What's weird about the latter incident, is that Smith had already traveled around the world and was never really satisfied with his life, until he met Pocahontas. In the sequel, the situation is completely reverse; He doesn't seem to be satisfied by being with her and wants to go sailing again.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:14 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
What's weird about the latter incident, is that Smith had already traveled around the world and was never really satisfied with his life, until he met Pocahontas. In the sequel, the situation is completely reverse; He doesn't seem to be satisfied by being with her and wants to go sailing again.


He's definitely out of character in the sequel. Since the filmmakers decided to pair Pocahontas with Rolfe, the portrayal of Smith must have been an issue for them. They wanted Smith to remain a hero and a good guy but at the same time they wanted the audience to cheer for Rolfe so they had to make Smith's personality flawed and make him a bit of a jerk but not too much or too obvious.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:41 pm 
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Sotiris wrote:
DisneyFan09 wrote:
What's weird about the latter incident, is that Smith had already traveled around the world and was never really satisfied with his life, until he met Pocahontas. In the sequel, the situation is completely reverse; He doesn't seem to be satisfied by being with her and wants to go sailing again.


He's definitely out of character in the sequel. Since the filmmakers decided to pair Pocahontas with Rolfe, the portrayal of Smith must have been an issue for them. They wanted Smith to remain a hero and a good guy but at the same time they wanted the audience to cheer for Rolfe so they had to make Smith's personality flawed and make him a bit of a jerk but not too much or too obvious.


Not that I'm going to defend the sequel in any way, because I don't like it much either, but I've always seen Pocahontas and John Smith just growing apart. I'm not sure if it's so much that John is a Jerk. I think the film failed in suggesting that sometimes what you want isn't really what you want. John thought he could settle down, but his adventuresome spirit wouldn't let him. He would never have been fully happy staying with the tribe and Pocahontas. He loved her, but not enough to change his life completely. That makes it easier for the audience to accept that they may not have been the best match after all. I don't think that makes him a jerk though, and Pocahontas had already moved on anyway.

Another thing I wanted to point out, is that Pocahontas doesn't go to London to find John Smith. She thinks he's dead for most of the film. She goes to London as an ambassador for her tribe to help convince the King not to attack her people.

Overall the sequel is a big FAIL. If you sorta read between the lines though, you can see what they were trying to do with it. IMO it's more of a coming of age story than a story about a love triangle.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:10 pm 
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singerguy04 wrote:
Not that I'm going to defend the sequel in any way, because I don't like it much either, but I've always seen Pocahontas and John Smith just growing apart.


That's a valid point. I think they realized that they ultimately wanted different things in life but still valued the experience of their relationship and what they had learned from each other.

singerguy04 wrote:
Another thing I wanted to point out, is that Pocahontas doesn't go to London to find John Smith. She thinks he's dead for most of the film. She goes to London as an ambassador for her tribe to help convince the King not to attack her people.


The fact that Pocahontas thought Smith had died, could also be a reason why they couldn't end up together. After mourning him for so long, she had finally accepted it was time to move on with her life. That's what the song "Where Do I go from Here" is all about.

All in all, the sequel makes much more sense in isolation rather than comparing it to the original both in terms of the characters' personalities and the reasoning behind their choices. It's when you take into account the original, that the sequel feels "awkward". If it was an original story, and not a sequel it would be a much better film and more people would have liked it.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Well, either way, I still like Pocahontas with John Smith better than with John Rolfe. :(


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:14 pm 
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All in all, the sequel makes much more sense in isolation rather than comparing it to the original both in terms of the characters' personalities and the reasoning behind their choices. It's when you take into account the original, that the sequel feels "awkward". If it was an original story, and not a sequel it would be a much better film and more people would have liked it.


That's true. What's funny is that the reviewers which didn't like Pocahontas prefered the sequel and there were many of those, since Pocahontas was recived poorly critically anyway. Even Nostalgia Chick, who's constantly dissing Pocahontas in almost every singel Disney review of hers, thought the sequel was better than the original. Nostalgia Chick, could you please stop dissing Pocahontas? It's really annoying.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:28 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
That's true. What's funny is that the reviewers which didn't like Pocahontas prefered the sequel and there were many of those, since Pocahontas was recived poorly critically anyway.


You're kidding me, right?! :?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:31 pm 
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DisneyJedi wrote:
DisneyFan09 wrote:
That's true. What's funny is that the reviewers which didn't like Pocahontas prefered the sequel and there were many of those, since Pocahontas was recived poorly critically anyway.


You're kidding me, right?! :?


No, its true. Just look up some of the reviews of this movie which were from 1995. Very few of them are positive.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:40 pm 
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A few months ago I watched Pocahontas II again for the first time in years, and the overall picture I took from it was that if ever there was a cheapquel that was worth it enough to remake and reshape into a genuine Disney classic and quality film, it's Pocahontas II. It has great ingredients, but the story called for more breathing room than what the cheapquels could provide.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:05 pm 
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Sotiris wrote:
Also, he didn't support her when she wanted to go face the king and help her people. It was Rolfe who insisted she shouldn't turn her back on her people.


Actually, now that I remember, he tried to prevent her from getting in danger.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:15 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
Actually, now that I remember, he tried to prevent her from getting in danger.


Yeah but he seemed to be out of touch with what is important to Pocahontas. You'd think he'd remember 'Colors of the Wind' and what that meant or how she sacrificed her own desires to preserve peace in her land.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:30 pm 
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DisneyFan09 wrote:
What's weird about the latter incident, is that Smith had already traveled around the world and was never really satisfied with his life, until he met Pocahontas. In the sequel, the situation is completely reverse; He doesn't seem to be satisfied by being with her and wants to go sailing again.

Yup, that's because that's what the plot dictates. Disney wants to grab more money, and if they have to destroy characters and their relationships to do that, they will.

DisneyFan09 wrote:
[...] Even Nostalgia Chick, who's constantly dissing Pocahontas in almost every singel Disney review of hers, thought the sequel was better than the original. Nostalgia Chick, could you please stop dissing Pocahontas? It's really annoying.

Could people please stop giving this 'Nostalgia Chick' person's opinions so much weight? "Even Nostalgia Chick"!!! :o Well, whoop-tee-doo! Really, who cares what a random person on the internet says? Even if she has her own website. I can make my own website and then air my opinions. Doesn't make them have any weight or importance.

This was not meant as an attack on you, DisneyFan, by the way. I would've said this to anyone mentioning the 'Nostalgia CHick'. And if you like her, that's fine, I'm not dissing that. Just that it seemed odd that you would say "could you please stop dissing Pocahontas" to Nostalgia Chick, because... really... why would you care what this random stranger thinks about Pocahontas? :)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:23 pm 
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http://disneyhunks.tumblr.com/post/9414 ... e-a-lie-in

:lol:

and

http://disneyhunks.tumblr.com/post/7555 ... john-smith

:)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:25 pm 
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^ :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:44 am 
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I've had this movie on DVD for quite some time, but honestly it never really held my interest all that well and I could never remember exactly how it ended. So I forced myself to watch the entire thing and was pleasantly surprised. There were a few things that peeved me though - I found at times the dramatic romanticising of the story, and making it all into a musical, is somewhat disrespectful to Native Americans as it is loosely based on true events after all (not saying the songs or music or whatever isn't outstanding - it is, but there's also the context to consider). The main issue I had, though, was with Meeko, Flit and Percy. That entire little plot was absolutely unnecessary, and there were several times that I thought the fim could have been very dark, moving and emotional, and given the way it ends it could have been considered very powerful (even given its other faults). I know the kiddies probably wouldn't have stayed interested without it, but on the other hand there wasn't much in-your-face comedy in Beauty and the Beast. Pocahontas could have easily achieved the same result, and it's a shame that Disney chose a slightly different path to go down. There were a couple of times where these little 'trying too hard to be funny' moments made me groan, and it honestly reminds me too much of what they ended up doing with the various cheapquels.

I guess everything I've just written is common knowledge amongst people here, but I just wanted to share my opinions as a 'somewhat new' fan and critic.

EDIT: Reading through the opinions on the cheapquel - not defending it in any way, btw - but just curious if anyone is actually aware of the true story of Pocahontas, which both films are loosely based on?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:07 am 
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Ivan wrote:
btw - but just curious if anyone is actually aware of the true story of Pocahontas, which both films are loosely based on?


I am, what about it?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:12 am 
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Also, Ratcliffe had a much better song in the sequel, that and the fact the reasons things were going goof, of seeing how evil or rotten Ratcliffe really is. He also feels more of a threat in the sequel, though that would probably because Ratcliffe is in his backyard now.

Also I think the scenes with the bodyguard of Pocahontas have me in stitches laughing.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:38 am 
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milojthatch wrote:
Ivan wrote:
btw - but just curious if anyone is actually aware of the true story of Pocahontas, which both films are loosely based on?


I am, what about it?


I'm just curious if anyone complaining about Pocahontas ending up with John Rolfe in the sequel understood that that's exactly what happened in real life (although under slightly less audience friendly terms).


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