Fantasia/F2K: 2-Movie Collection Discussion: Nov. 30, 2010

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Escapay
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Post by Escapay »

So as to not steer off on a tangent in the "My Blu-Ray Copy of Snow White" or whatever it's called, I'm bumping this topic up to address something goofystitch said regarding next year's release of Fantasia and Fantasia 2000...
goofystitch wrote:With the theatrical release [of BATB 3-D] no longer a conflict for the Home Entertainment division, they were free to rearrange the schedule. The real reason for switching Beauty and the Beast to Spring was to spend more time on Fantasia's restoration.
That's good to hear, especially considering that when Disney released Fantasia in 2000, it had to that insert talking about how the age of the source material resulted in artifacts and such that couldn't be removed without changing the quality of the movie (or something like that). Here's hoping that 10 years later they're able to fix this now!
goofystitch wrote:In addition, my friend heard that they weren't planning many new bonus features for Fantasia because it would be a 2-disc Blu-Ray, with disc 1 being the original film and all of the previous bonus features for that film, and disc 2 being Fantasia 2000 and all of the previous bonus features for that film. While both films had great releases before, it's still sad to hear that they aren't planning new bonus features for the set. This should also come as a disappointment to those who expected a 2-disc set for each film.
Given how much was already offered from the Anthology set, I'm not too disappointed. And in the Anthology insert, Roy E. Disney even says this: "Over the course of the DVD production, it became clear that our hardest decision would be what to leave out. As it is, this DVD set contains over 11 hours of content in addition to both versions of Fantasia."

So I'm hoping it's safe to assume that all the material they compiled in 2000 but couldn't put on the DVD will be included in the Blu-Ray.

The only way I can think of them adding *new* bonus features would be to do what they did with Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, which is dump the old documentary and create a new one in HD. The caveat of that, unfortunately, is that it might be overpopulated with contemporary Disney filmmakers/animators who spend more time praising the film rather than talking about its production and animation.

If they do have a chance to shoot some new features, what I'd really love is a longer featurette about the Process Lab, as it's only 4 minutes in the Anthology boxset (but packs more information in its 4 minutes than other special-effects featurettes thrice as long on other DVDs). In addition, there's loads of trailers that can be included (such as the one that appears in the queue line for The Great Movie Ride), and surely they can update the galleries to include more artwork and stuff. Also, they can easily include excerpts like "Blue Bayou" from Make Mine Music (to show the comparison between "Clair de Lune" and "Blue Bayou"), "Bumble Boogie" from Melody Time (as "Flight of the Bumblebee" was a dropped short from the film), and there's plenty of other shorts mentioned in books and even in Fantasia 2000 that they could include concept art for.

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Post by goofystitch »

Great suggestions, Escapay! For Fantasia 2000, I'm hoping they include all of the shorts that were planned for the abandoned third film that were actually produced. I know that Destino is the big one that has been confirmed, but it would be nice to see shorts like "One by One" included here as well, along with some sort of a feature about how they came to be.
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Post by magicalwands »

Escapay, I've known you for years now from browsing these forums. I've known of your job at Walt Disney World. Surely by now you have moved up to the big offices at Disney? Because you would be the perfect person to be in charge of what goes on these discs department. We'd get the best releases EVER (and slipcovers would be extinct.)
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Post by MutantEnemy »

I don't know about this single release theory. Since when has Disney been content on charging us for one product when they could charge us for two. You could be right but it just doesn't fit with past Disney decisions. We'll see...
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Post by goofystitch »

MutantEnemy wrote:I don't know about this single release theory. Since when has Disney been content on charging us for one product when they could charge us for two. You could be right but it just doesn't fit with past Disney decisions. We'll see...
I thought that as well, but when you think about it, statistically speaking sequels don't sell as well as the original and Disney's recent strategy has been to hype up the "value" of the movies you buy. Whether it's pairing older films together into 2-packs for $15 or less or throwing in extra copies of the film, their whole marketing angle now that home video sales have declined is to make the consumer feel like they are getting more than they paid for. I'm assuming that is the decision behind pairing both films into one set. But hopefully it isn't true or they change their mind. I would greatly prefer for both Fantasia and Fantasia 2000 to have their separate 2-disc Diamond Editions.
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Post by MrIncredible »

If Fantasia and Fantasia 2000 are bundled together, I would hope it would be in a 6 disc boxset, with each film being 3 discs each (2 Blu-rays, 1 DVD).

I know Disney, like most studios, do release value packs, but are really just two average films that might not sell well on their own, or stuff that's been lying around for a while. But then again, the Amigos set was pretty nice, although those weren't nearly as big as these two are.
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Post by goofystitch »

MrIncredible wrote:If Fantasia and Fantasia 2000 are bundled together, I would hope it would be in a 6 disc boxset, with each film being 3 discs each (2 Blu-rays, 1 DVD).

I know Disney, like most studios, do release value packs, but are really just two average films that might not sell well on their own, or stuff that's been lying around for a while. But then again, the Amigos set was pretty nice, although those weren't nearly as big as these two are.
I have a feeling that the Blu-Ray will probably be a 4-disc set (2 Blu-Ray discs, 2 DVD discs) with the DVD copies of each film added. The information my friend gave me only pertained to the Blu-Ray, but I'm assuming that the DVD set would be 3-discs to fit all of the Anthology content.

But the release is a year away and Disney is prone to making changes (and the information my friend got could be wrong). I personally hope that they give each film it's own 2-disc Blu-Ray with lots of new content to go along with the recycled Anthology features. I'm also hoping they decide to do a big box set like they are doing with Snow White. It would be neat if they included both films, a book, pin set, and reproduction of the original program given to attendees of the roadshow version.
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Post by jpanimation »

Well here is what Snow White takes up on the Blu-ray discs:

Disc 1 uses 18.3GB for the movie out of 33.0GB total.
Disc 2 uses 40.1GB total.

Now doing the math based on runtime, Fantasia would take up around 27GB for the movie out of around 42GB total (adding in the standard extras, based on the first disc of Snow White, which amounts to previews, interactive menu, commentaries, DisneyView, audio options, etc.). So thats an estimated 42GB taken up, which on a dual layer 50GB, doesn't leave room for any HD extras (as you can see by Snow White, HD extras took up an additional 40.1GB) and only gives you the option of standard def ports (as they've been doing with all their PIXAR catalog titles that I don't buy). I know this is taking pure data information and not products into account, but single disc releases just never feel as satisfying.

I really hope they don't do what Warner has been doing. Warner crammed Casablanca all on a single layer Blu-ray and all the SD extras from the DVD, nothing new. They could've at lease made it dual-layer and increased the PQ on the movie and gave us Carrotblanca in HD (as they did with the Loony Tune shorts on Robin Hood). Instead they seem to spend all their timing figuring out how to cram as much as they can on a disc at the cost of quality, which Disney didn't do, and thats what mad me feel Disney was offering me a higher quality product.

Sorry for all the complaining, at this point, we can't be sure what Disney is planning.
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Post by Escapay »

magicalwands wrote:Escapay, I've known you for years now from browsing these forums. I've known of your job at Walt Disney World. Surely by now you have moved up to the big offices at Disney? Because you would be the perfect person to be in charge of what goes on these discs department. We'd get the best releases EVER (and slipcovers would be extinct.)
:D

Believe me, I would LOVE to have a hand in producing their special features. It would be a lot more fun than just b!tching and moaning about them on UD!
jpanimation wrote:I really hope they don't do what Warner has been doing. Warner crammed Casablanca all on a single layer Blu-ray and all the SD extras from the DVD, nothing new. They could've at lease made it dual-layer and increased the PQ on the movie and gave us Carrotblanca in HD (as they did with the Loony Tune shorts on Robin Hood). Instead they seem to spend all their timing figuring out how to cram as much as they can on a disc at the cost of quality, which Disney didn't do, and thats what mad me feel Disney was offering me a higher quality product.
Oh wow. I knew that they made the Blu-Ray a single-disc, but single layer as well?

Honestly, the only new things I could think of that would be worth adding for another home video release of Casablanca would be a biographical documentary on Ingrid Bergman. It seems only fair since there's already "Bacall on Bogart" and the 1993 Jack L. Warner documentary (which I think was just on a separate DVD in the Blu-Ray set).

A new documentary of contemporary filmmakers gushing about the film seems more likely, but really, I don't know how much more anyone can take of famous people saying "Yay for this film! We love this film!"

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Post by goofystitch »

jpanimation wrote:Well here is what Snow White takes up on the Blu-ray discs:

Disc 1 uses 18.3GB for the movie out of 33.0GB total.
Disc 2 uses 40.1GB total.

Now doing the math based on runtime, Fantasia would take up around 27GB for the movie out of around 42GB total (adding in the standard extras, based on the first disc of Snow White, which amounts to previews, interactive menu, commentaries, DisneyView, audio options, etc.). So thats an estimated 42GB taken up, which on a dual layer 50GB, doesn't leave room for any HD extras (as you can see by Snow White, HD extras took up an additional 40.1GB) and only gives you the option of standard def ports (as they've been doing with all their PIXAR catalog titles that I don't buy). I know this is taking pure data information and not products into account, but single disc releases just never feel as satisfying.

I really hope they don't do what Warner has been doing. Warner crammed Casablanca all on a single layer Blu-ray and all the SD extras from the DVD, nothing new. They could've at lease made it dual-layer and increased the PQ on the movie and gave us Carrotblanca in HD (as they did with the Loony Tune shorts on Robin Hood). Instead they seem to spend all their timing figuring out how to cram as much as they can on a disc at the cost of quality, which Disney didn't do, and thats what mad me feel Disney was offering me a higher quality product.

Sorry for all the complaining, at this point, we can't be sure what Disney is planning.
The 40.1GB total for disc 2 of Snow White's Diamond Edition is a mix of HD and SD features. Also, market surveys have shown that the average Blu-Ray consumer doesn't care if most of the bonus features are in HD or not. I personally disagree with that, but that is what research has shown, which I think is part of the reason that Warner Bros. feels uncompelled to remaster anything in HD the way Disney did for some features on Sleeping Beauty (The Tchaikovsky Story). However, in the case of the bonus features from the Anthology, they were filmed on tape, so they wouldn't look much better in HD to begin with. So I don't see it as the same lack of care that Warner gives many of their releases.

I've said this before, but even if Disney simply ported everything over from the Anthology, it's still going to be a great set. While new bonus features are always greatly appreciated, sometimes they did such a good job the first time around that there isn't much more to add, which is pretty much the case here. I'm assuming that some things will be remastered in HD, like the deleted sequences, and probably one or two short documentaries will be made.

I don't think that Disney will be cramming the discs full in such a way that picture quality will be reduced. And based on reviews for Warner's Wizard of Oz Blu-Ray, that's not the case there either, even though they were able to fit hours of SD bonus features on the same disc as the HD film.

And this isn't the first time that a 2-disc DVD fits comfortably on one Blu-Ray for a Disney film. The Nightmare Before Christmas, National Treasure, and High School Musical all had 2-disc DVDs, but their Blu-Ray equivalent was a single disc. There are even some who argue that Pinocchio could have fit on a single Blu-Ray disc without losing quality. And based on Disney's marketing for the upcoming Dumbo Special Edition, the DVD will be a 2-disc set, but all of the bonuses will fit on a single Blu-Ray. I think the old stigma that "2-disc=better release" needs to be abandoned when dealing with Blu-Ray.
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Post by SpringHeelJack »

The "two disc over one" mentality isn't likely to change. It's been that way on DVD, frankly. Wasn't it "101 Dalmatians" that pretty much could have fit on one dual-layer disc with only slight compression? I think disc one just barely made it onto another layer, and disc two was single. And the initial SE DVD of "This is Spinal Tap" was oddly put on two single layer DVDs and eventually turned into one dual layer. I think this practice is pretty much too engrained now to change significantly. It seems more disc = more value is the way the average consumer sees it.

Anyhow, as long as single layer discs, be they Blu-ray or DVD, are still cheaper, I have a feeling we'll still be seeing movies compressed onto one layer or put in two-disc single layer sets.
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Post by ajmrowland »

It was Jungle Book, I think.
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Post by Escapay »

Pretty much every Platinum after Aladdin could have all the relevant material (as in, just Backstage Disney and not include Games & Activities or Music & More) fit on one disc.

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Post by milojthatch »

I'm a bit confused, the Fantasia films will or will not be released again on DVD?
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Post by 2099net »

goofystitch wrote:Now doing the math based on runtime, Fantasia would take up around 27GB for the movie out of around 42GB total (adding in the standard extras, based on the first disc of Snow White, which amounts to previews, interactive menu, commentaries, DisneyView, audio options, etc.). So thats an estimated 42GB taken up, which on a dual layer 50GB, doesn't leave room for any HD extras (as you can see by Snow White, HD extras took up an additional 40.1GB) and only gives you the option of standard def ports (as they've been doing with all their PIXAR catalog titles that I don't buy). I know this is taking pure data information and not products into account, but single disc releases just never feel as satisfying.
Well, it depends. Firstly a lot of special features don't exist in HD, and you can't expect every Blu-ray to have new special features created. So in that case, SD is perfectly acceptable, and I for one don't see much point in complaining.

There's also the fact that a lot of special features are mainly talking heads. I really don't see much point in these being filmed or encoded in HD. Something which still makes me mad to this day is that the Ghost Rider Blu-ray omitted the comic book documentary (presumably because it wouldn't fit on the disc in HD). I love the Marvel comic book documentries, and I would of had no problem with it being included in SD simply because all we saw were talking heads and slowly panning comic book artwork. Yeah, a HD presentation would be preferable - but a SD presentation is more preferable to no presentation - especially as the majority of Blu-ray players upscale SD content!

All in all, I'd rather have quality supplements (as in editorially) over quality supplements (as in visually) on my Blu-ray discs. If putting them on in SD means we can get more, and longer, fully rounded supplements, I'd rather have that.

As for Beauty and the Beast and Fantasia I strongly doubt we'll get any SD documentaries recycled. It's just not Disney's policy to date. Disney like to put HD documentaries on their prestige Blu-rays and I don't see this changing. I'm sure both will have new documentaries filmed - But that raises another question: being as the two Fantasia documentaries were superb (and if I remember correctly 50mins each) - Do we actually want new HD documentries (which will probably be "dumbed down") or do we want the existing SD content? Being as the existing stuff is so exhaustive, I can't see a justification for a new documentary if it is included, so I suspect it won't be.

Which actually means the Fantasia release could end up with lesser quality supplements despite them being in HD.
I've said this before, but even if Disney simply ported everything over from the Anthology, it's still going to be a great set. While new bonus features are always greatly appreciated, sometimes they did such a good job the first time around that there isn't much more to add, which is pretty much the case here. I'm assuming that some things will be remastered in HD, like the deleted sequences, and probably one or two short documentaries will be made.

I don't think that Disney will be cramming the discs full in such a way that picture quality will be reduced. And based on reviews for Warner's Wizard of Oz Blu-Ray, that's not the case there either, even though they were able to fit hours of SD bonus features on the same disc as the HD film.
I think when it comes to HD supplements, common sense has to be used. As I said before the presentation of some supplements really benefit from HD (anything "branched to" from the movie, deleted scenes, trailers, cartoon shorts, B-Roll footage), some would but you can understand if they don't due to cost (Archive clips, TV programmes) and some probably don't need it (any featurette consisting primarily of talking heads against static backgrounds, TV spots or long form making-ofs (2 hrs plus) where presenting them in HD simply isn't practical unless a second disc is included).
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Post by Scamander »

I wrote to Disney Germany because of the release dates of Beauty and the Beast and Fantasia/ Fantasia 2000, today I got the answer. They wrote BatB would coming in Fall AND will be the next Diamond Edition, while the both Fantasias are intended to get a release at Christmas time.
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Post by goofystitch »

Scamander wrote:I wrote to Disney Germany because of the release dates of Beauty and the Beast and Fantasia/ Fantasia 2000, today I got the answer. They wrote BatB would coming in Fall AND will be the next Diamond Edition, while the both Fantasias are intended to get a release at Christmas time.
Very interesting. I wonder if they will do the same everywhere? Or if that is just the way they are doing it in parts of Europe?
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Post by GeorgeCauldron »

goofystitch wrote:
Scamander wrote:I wrote to Disney Germany because of the release dates of Beauty and the Beast and Fantasia/ Fantasia 2000, today I got the answer. They wrote BatB would coming in Fall AND will be the next Diamond Edition, while the both Fantasias are intended to get a release at Christmas time.
Very interesting. I wonder if they will do the same everywhere? Or if that is just the way they are doing it in parts of Europe?
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Post by KubrickFan »

jpanimation wrote: I really hope they don't do what Warner has been doing. Warner crammed Casablanca all on a single layer Blu-ray and all the SD extras from the DVD, nothing new. They could've at lease made it dual-layer and increased the PQ on the movie and gave us Carrotblanca in HD (as they did with the Loony Tune shorts on Robin Hood). Instead they seem to spend all their timing figuring out how to cram as much as they can on a disc at the cost of quality, which Disney didn't do, and thats what mad me feel Disney was offering me a higher quality product.

Sorry for all the complaining, at this point, we can't be sure what Disney is planning.
You're not suggesting Casablanca doesn't look good on Blu-ray, do you? It's still one of the reference disks when black and white movies are concerned. A higher bitrate doesn't guarantee a better picture.
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Post by jpanimation »

Scamander wrote:I wrote to Disney Germany because of the release dates of Beauty and the Beast and Fantasia/ Fantasia 2000, today I got the answer. They wrote BatB would coming in Fall AND will be the next Diamond Edition, while the both Fantasias are intended to get a release at Christmas time.
Would Disney actually release two Diamonds that close together? Is Dumbo meant to fill the gap? It makes sense as they wouldn't have to rush either releases and could make new supplements for both all while making Fantasia's restoration the best it can be. In one way I hope its true for the quality of the releases but it sure would be a hard wait.
KubrickFan wrote:You're not suggesting Casablanca doesn't look good on Blu-ray, are you? It's still one of the reference disks when black and white movies are concerned. A higher bitrate doesn't guarantee a better picture.
Not at all. I own The Day the Earth Stood Still and Casablanca on Blu and I have to say I prefer Warner's fantastic restoration to Fox's higher bit-rates. You should be walking away from my post with the notion that I just like to complain and that I really wanted Carrotblanca restored and in HD (right now it looks like crap) :D

I'd really like to see the shorts One by One, Lorenzo, and The Little Matchgirl, in addition to the previously announced Destino as a tribute to Fantasia 2006 on the Fantasia 2000 disc as extras. Maybe they could also ad an option to watch Fantasia 2000 without the celebrity intros (better yet, get one person who actually has something to do with music, record new intros for the whole thing to be consistent). Either way, I'm sure Disney will do us fans right by giving us a proper Fantasia Blu release.
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